Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

[RealityFan]

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot.
I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here.
My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE.
I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis.
I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike.
My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject.
I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

@Brefugee
My gist is that it seems to some that the women pushed too far, in reality not even fully to equality

Is what I wrote.

Not that I think equality has gone too far, but that plenty of guys used to think so. And they would say it. Even if there was no substance to it.

The F4J thing always comes up. And as another poster pointed out often those guys were perpetrators of DV, with the same charming ability for self insight as any DV perpetrator I have ever met.

You were going to enlighten us as to the thinking that TRAs have. Instead - what? nothing several of us haven't heard before and don't already know.

Nope.

People who consider "verbals" violent have absolutely no clue about real violence.

The F4J thing always comes up. And as another poster pointed out often those guys were perpetrators of DV, with the same charming ability for self insight as any DV perpetrator I have ever met.

F4J were very very very clever. A lot of people don't know that their approach was 2 pronged. So there was Batman on Buck House being an idiot and drawing attention and getting the F4J name out there. And there were others, in suits, talking to lawyers, the police, social workers, judges and as legal representatives for men in family courts. And it worked very very well.

I want to know how pushing for membership of the R&A golf club or Whites is in any way comparable to having no single sex spaces for biological women.
I had thought that the OP was going to give some insight - more than we already have. But, alas, it wasn't to be.

In the 70s and 80s, verbals would be the least of their problems.
Today? Only the most aggressive male would push on, most males would just be embarrassed.

I think the crux of the enlightenment we are getting here is the same as it ever was:

i.e. it's women's fault.

Op is trying to tread a line by claiming to be the good and enlightened man, but the point remains the same.

Women: you asked for too much. You asked for it in the wrong tone.

This is consequences.

It's a familiar message.

If you'd said it more nicely
If you'd not been shrill
if you'd not pushed towards equality and been annoying

currently we're at 'if you hadn't talked about your equality when we told you to shut up we wouldn't have had to violently fracture your skull.'

Cross posted. You put it better

What drives TRAs is male entitlement and misogyny I don't think we needed you to tell us that. We know men hate women it's not news.

A lot of women are happy that men are onboard and want to come to the LWS events, for example.

I didn’t Get the impression RealityFan was going to illuminate anyone wildly, more share his thoughts on the matter.
Which will be: socialised differently (which to me was an Angle I recognised from my youth - I’m mid forties) and not from a personal fear standpoint.
I’d like to hear these thoughts, in case I can glean some useful info to peak my DH.

My nearly adult sons are completely GC because they have grown up with many kids around them trying on trans identities and to them it is just daft. A lot of whining, and I’m so special, me. They just found it annoying, in a live and let live way.
My DH is weirdly more bekind than me, but also fond of male only clubs (and female only clubs) so I’m looking for an angle here.

@Brefugee
te F4J, I know. I have been on the receiving end in the Justice system and my kids paid a heavy price.

But it does seem that simple:
You can’t have equality. Not even close. Shut up.

So I want all voices to join in the NO.

Hello

@RealityFan thanks for the explanation, it makes sense. I wanted to kick those men out of my social group years ago. But most women are socialized into 'being kind.' Not me!
It's interesting I think a good portion of the hostility to you here is finding out the reality of a man's pov. Women tend to think men behave like women only they just have penises...

I think the social spaces for men and women are an interesting one.

I know why I sometimes prefer a women's only space. It's because men tend to dominate and get centred (not consciously on anyone's part). It's because it gives us freedom from being objectified or chatted up.

What is it for men? How does the feel of a space change when women aren't there?

Male friends have told me that men tend to say things they wouldn't say in front of women and that they feel less censored. That's the only difference they've described, though.

So that is something I'd like a male perspective on...

I grew up.
I stopped porn.
I interrogated my thoughts on lots of things (women, gays, migrants etc).
I became more comfortable in my own skin.
I developed a long term relationship.
Becoming a better person means thinking more about others.
I also realised how easy it was to go in herds etc, meaning developing more objective ways of thinking.
And as I reconnected with the warmer side of my personality, freer of toxic circular thought patterns, what homed into view?
Yes, TRA, and the collapse of the ethos of objective facts over feelings.
And so my 180 on antagonism on feminism now melded with total suspicion of a bogus new belief structure.
And the continued observation that the group I generally allied myself to over four decades of my adult life ie Western liberalism, has had a collective nervous breakdown.

@Brefugee perhaps what the op is saying isn't news to you or many commenting here. But you don't have to engage with the thread. Plus there's loads of people who might be interested in reading the OP's thoughts, and it might be new and enlightening to them. I don't get why you are going on at him for? Feels mean to me in that 'i am a feminist and i hate all men way'.

I love reading this feminism board. I love hearing different people's views. I often find myself thinking who are these people?! They seem to me to be very bright and articulate women! I wish I could know these women or men even in real life! I have lots of deep thoughts on feminism issues but I cannot articulate myself eloquently in the way many on here do. I feel intimidated to post my thoughts even because of posters like you! Hope you can see what I am trying to say 😆🤔🙂

Male toilets are dangerous to trans woman.

I would recommend you talk to a trans woman more about this.

Maybe this is wrong, but I'm getting the impression when some people on this thread are are talking about equality, they mean equality of outcome - and when other's are talking about equality, they mean equality of opportunity.

Maybe it would be good to clarify which?

Because genuinely from an equality of opportunity side of the fence perspective, I can fully see how some things, for example; Having to meet a specific quota of women in the workplace, could be seen as feminism "going too far".

I very much don't want to be hired somewhere because they have to fill a quota. I'd much rather be hired on my actual merit and work ethic.

I can also weirdly see to an extent OP's point about Page 3 girls.
Feminism now is more sex positive and explicit, it's now pushing women and girls into that line of "work", sex work is real work, Only Fans, getting rid of Grid Girls at F1 (which put those girls out of a job funnily enough).
Telling women it's empowering because "Men are so weak to their basic urges they simply can't control themselves and will spend thousands upon thousands on you."
Telling women, they have all the power because they can decide what things they do or don't do.

I don't think feminism should ever be telling women what the can't do, feminism should always be giving women the choice of what they want to do. and In that sense, I agree that getting rid of page 3 girls probably wasn't the smartest move.
What we have now in 2023 with Only Fans & Instagram Models is SO much worse imo.
And also significantly worse for males, porn addiction, and their viewing of women as sexual objects.
Only Fans has given men the impression that every woman has their price, I genuinely don't think this would be the case if things like Page 3, grid girls etc hadn't set the stage for it (Though I'm happy to be convinced otherwise/shown another perspective on this!)

Male toilets are dangerous to trans woman.
I would recommend you talk to a trans woman more about this.

we have a man here who is supposed to give us the man's view on this. BUT HE WON'T ANSWER. It is infuriating

perhaps what the op is saying isn't news to you or many commenting here. But you don't have to engage with the thread

i (and others) came here in good faith to hear a pov that doesn't get a lot of airing. But - not surprisingly - we didn't get that. It's just another chap writing words. Nothing the OP has said isn't something we haven't already talked about in FWR. Several times over. An honest male pov would (have been) useful and interesting

Obviously my revelations only mean something to me. I'm not justifying how I felt two decades ago, just relaying how they informed my thinking.
My reverting to less antagonised opinions coincides with my sheer antipathy to TRA.
Whether I feel I had a lucky escape in not remaining a basement keyboard warrior, porn as a hobby, maybe a little. My dive nowhere near as deep as what I'm seeing from the cream of TRAs online.
However, I've always been empathetic, even in my spikiest anti feminist period, I never felt comfortable with unbridled misogyny and no boundaries bad behaviour. I was more unhappy with myself, not women.
Maybe that's why I more than many men recognise the sheer misogyny in the TRA movement, and rail against the free pass it's been given by polite society.

That will be all of those violent verbals we've been hearing about, right?

I don't think feminism should ever be telling women what the can't do, feminism should always be giving women the choice of what they want to do.

welcome to 2nd wave feminism which is about equality of opportunity.
It is honestly like banging our heads against a brick wall

I'll come to you in future to learn more. Sorry my thoughts so wide of the mark, so uninformative.

OP I am really finding your writing hard to understand. I think it would help if you used full sentences and paragraphs. I do mean that genuinely, this is not a dig.

This bit I really could not get: "I remember radical feminists saying that men shouldn't exclude women, they'll be plotting to end the rights second wavers fought for.
I truly believe this was a misstep at the time, I was as pissed off with women interfering in our fun."

Who will be plotting to end the rights? Who said this?

What I think you're saying is that your moral compass was way off 20 years ago and you were a bit of a MRA. You did not want to give up male privilege to any degree, so like lots of men, you decided to pretend that women were 'taking things too far' in order that you could push them back into their box. Something seems to have happened to make you ashamed of your previous views. Is that right? If so, can you tell us what? What made you notice what you were doing? Does knowledge of that change factor impact how you challenge the men who are continuing to feel threatened by women's rights at the current time?

I actually do think your views are interesting. I think you're saying that misogynist men have been stewing for 20 years because they were in a comfortable position and did not care to think about who was paying for their comfort. The roots of the entitlement which underpins the 'TWAW' trope are deep. It makes me wonder whether increased education about female inequality and oppression would be helpful - only if properly communicated that this is based on body, not identity though of course. Pretending that TW have the same history as women and suffer the same discrimination and oppression is just offensive and an act of aggression IMHO

How do you think men can start to challenge other men such that a woman in a frock does not even get verbal harassment in a loo do you think?

@Brefugee as someone suggested find another thread to engage with. You are simply ranting now and it's tiresome.
The OP answered my questions. And I'm interested in his further opinions.