Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

[RealityFan]

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot.
I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here.
My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE.
I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis.
I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike.
My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject.
I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

I also think you need to do a little less segueing and talk to other men as much as possible.

Men need to talk to men.

By all means, join discussions on here just like any other poster. You don't need to declare your maleness to join in.

But in terms of what you can actually do to help - you can raise awareness with other men, not come onto a feminist board to preach to the converted?

My most used gif on twitter is the "a man is here to give his manly opinion" i always appreciate that i don't usually need it here.

Ha, I've been posting here for a little while and I too am a man, highly critical of gender ideology. In my case a gay man who has long felt uncomfortable being linked alphabetically with causes that have nothing to do with gay rights, and directly threaten my lesbian sisters.

One of the reasons I decided to start posting here is because I lost a good female friend in another forum because of my "transphobic shit", and hardly anyone else there (a somewhat conformist left-wing place) seems aware of these issues - it's all a "be kind" vibe with little understanding of how the TRAs threaten women's sex-based rights, and at a deeper level, how much of a threat the ideology is to a rationally and empirically sound understanding of human nature.

Anyway, it's feeling good to be surrounded by strong women who take these issues seriously.🙂

Yeah, literally no one asked for your input. See ya

I don't have any issues around men coming and commenting, the more support the better. I'm also fine, when we ask, if a man will give his view of what he thinks other men are thinking.

I don't need to see the "man here" type comments. And while it was clarified (by other posters at first) that this thread was requested - it would have been a much better move if the OP had been clear about that in post one.

And I am wondering if the OP is going to acknowledge that at all or just going to ignore it?

@RealityFan Thanks for offering yourself up. I'd like to know how you feel about transwomen (mtf) in men's loos? How would you react? Do you think that they are likely to be abused either verbally, physically or sexually? Would you be tempted to abuse them? Would any of your friends? How would you or your friends act if you were present when a transwoman was being abused? Would your answers change depending on the loo situation e.g. the loos in a shopping centre at 11:00am and a busy pub at 11:00pm?

I'm interested to know if there is any validity that transwomen are exposing themselves to unreasonable risk when using sex-based facilities.

Yes, I'm welcoming of that.

You'll find a very mixed bunch of people who post here, don't necessarily let that put you off.

My first thoughts are a bit of a deep dive, and the water is pretty murky. I believe there are two drivers for TRA...older autogynephiles (joined up by younger ones), and young people, mainly teens, where confusion and social media contagion rules. Latter is for future posts. My thoughts now are on the former, the autogynephiles. I'm assuming we all basically know the phenomenon. Imho, this is not restricted to the Andrew Tate cult of personality, or incels generally. These are misogynists pure and simple. It's just that the internet and social media have amplified their toxicity. Angry bedsit man with no GF and a stack of Readers Wives mags under his bed existed back in the day. But the internet has allowed these men to find each other. Andrew Tate is a grifter, in an age of super grifters. No, the autogynephile/TRA phenomena is way darker and way more dangerous to girls and women. As a typical man, I had issues of confidence when younger, and porn was a phase I went thru. And it can warp your mind. However I'm also deeply analytical, and I moved away from it, but it's as strong and negative as any drug. However online porn in 2023 is on a different level from the mags and videos I perused in the 80s and 90s. Like comparing Skunk with mild cannabis. The stuff today is corroding. Autogynephiles are men who despise women while being obsessed with the imagery, and by co-opting female ID, they hit the sweetspot of erotic turn on thru rigid control. The fact that this demeans and violates women adds to the thrill. And now you throw Sissy Porn, Furry Porn etc into the mix, you have a wild Wild West of male anger, expectation, with more outré imagery, and more addictiveness. And the more women object and society allows them to be put down, the more the thrill cycle continues. To these older autogynephiles add the younger ones, Anime obsessed, knives and semi automatics adorning their avatars. Older pervs and younger angry types, all paraphilliacs. And all extreme dangers to females. I first gleaned this in 2015 when I read an article from a NY gay writer who's best friend was also a feature writer. Over the years borderline misogynist rants about women, but with a whipsharp wit that made the pieces readable. One day, the women hating writer walks into the office, decked out like a character from a Barbara Cartland novel lol, and when his gay friend interrogated him, our new "woman" said his ID had to be accepted by women everywhere. His colleague concluded that society could not bow to this, especially women, and if the phenomenon exploded, a brutal impasse would result. I'd say 2023 is that impasse. My additional take is that I also believe this is payback from the 1990-2010 period, where more and more women refused to countenance men having their own dedicated social spaces, barred to women. I remember radical feminists saying that men shouldn't exclude women, they'll be plotting to end the rights second wavers fought for. I truly believe this was a misstep at the time, I was as pissed off with women interfering in our fun. And also that whole period where fathers lost bigtime in family courts, losing all custody to children, I've heard from many family law barristers that a minority of women often worked the system to their advantage, not helped by the secrecy inherent in hearings. The sad dad's who dressed up as Spider-Men and took megaphones to town squares to broadcast their woes. I believe latent hostility to women from that period when feminists were a relentless force, plus the autogynephiles toxic porn addled energy, has combined to create this new anti-women wave. And somehow society is waving it thru. Especially the identarian Left, that have chosen to embrace toxic male rights activism.

Happy to try and answer any Qs, will chat about the sadder end of this spectrum, the damaged and demoralised teens leading the charge is my next area to give my thoughts as a guy.

Well, literally they did, so....

QueenHippolyta · 29/03/2023 15:55
Please launch a thread on what makes the typical male TRA mind tick. This Lesbian has no clue and I'd like to know.

I’d be interested to hear your views on what messages or points might land with men to wake them up.

Hi OP, you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned. I'm interested to hear from anyone that's working these issues out in their mind.

I think you could add James Dreyfus to your list, on the basis of his tweets on this subject.

I'm interested to understand a bit more about the push-back from men that you mentioned occuring around 1990 - 2010. Can you be more specific and give some examples of what you mean.

Male wisdom is not what I'm aiming to communicate, there's quite a shortage on our side. My idea was really to just give my perspective as a man, how I see the phenomenon coming into being.
No wish to step on anyone's toes or go "see, I've sorted it for ya".
Fwiw, I talk about this subject with every man I know. And put the GC view.

I'm interested in the answers to questions but i am so not reading a massive wall of text with no paragraph breaks.
so - meh. If anyone wants to give the cliff notes version I'd be up for that though

• My additional take is that I also believe this is payback from the 1990-2010 period, where more and more women refused to countenance men having their own dedicated social spaces, barred to women. I remember radical feminists saying that men shouldn't exclude women, they'll be plotting to end the rights second wavers fought for. I truly believe this was a misstep at the time, I was as pissed off with women interfering in our fun. And also that whole period where fathers lost bigtime in family courts, losing all custody to children, I've heard from many family law barristers that a minority of women often worked the system to their advantage, not helped by the secrecy inherent in hearings. The sad dad's who dressed up as Spider-Men and took megaphones to town squares to broadcast their woes. I believe latent hostility to women from that period when feminists were a relentless force, plus the autogynephiles toxic porn addled energy, has combined to create this new anti-women wave.*

I agreed with everything right up to here...

Feminists only ever wanted equal rights, not to 'ruin anyone's fun'. Women wanted to be included in places where power was brokered and business was done.

They wanted to not be confined to 'the ladies' bag' in pubs because how the fuck would you like to be segregated in that manner?

Men have the same rights under the Equality Act - single sex services (even including social spaces) can be provided where this a legitimate need.

If men still think this is unfair and they need to push back because having women around is a mood killer (why? Because women should be in the kitchen or having womanly discussions elsewhere, or because it means men have to stop pinching the barmaid's arse and showing some common civility?) then feminism clearly didn't do enough and didn't hold the line. We are equal human beings, but we clearly don't yet have that status.

I'm a total ally. I've actually spent good money on CBT reconciling this, and have lost a well-paying job because I won't compromise my views.

Have you read Mary Harrington's 'Feminsim Against Progres. A lot of what you say is mirrored in what she says about the way in which the differences between male and females have become liquified into marketplace commodities - in pursuit of an imagined equality which has so far failed to deliver the imagined utopia.

What would you say was the turning point or peak moment that sent you on this path?

I know where you're coming from, not lost a friend yet, but have to somewhat self-censor with a colleague, and take care discussing with clients.
Totally unacceptable that men have let this slide.

My husband is bafflingly complacent (or just wants me to shut up.) He thinks sports will lead the way in saying No to males identifying into women's space - he might be right, thank you swimming and athletics, banned in rugby since 2020. The injury risk and potential insurance issues will shut down mtf interference in women's sports - then giving women more scientific opposition to protest more "inclusion". He thinks prisons might do this first though. All over in 2 years - thank you, goodnight 😴 (World according to Husband)

Shame for the women waiting for single sex services for a few more years 😞 he wasn't really bothered about them.

Well, it's never happened. I'd like to think I'd do the right thing and confront the person. No difference where or when the incident happens.

That was supposed to say 'the ladies' bar. Stupid fingers.

The family courts are a mess and cloaked in opacity, so I don't disagree with that.

But look at the timeline for this. It's only in fairly recent history that married women and their children weren't the possession of their husbands, so NEVER had the right to custody.

Courts, as far as I am aware and from anecdotal experience, almost never refuse custody or visiting rights to either parent regardless of abuse. Men very often allow the mother to be the primary carer, to take time out of careers to do the majority of the childcare and then get angry when the mother is deemed primary carer by the courts.

If any man has been refused access to his children, I would be hugely surprised if there wasn't a massive backstory. I have friends who are terrorised by their ex partners with non-molestation orders, yet still have to hand over the children every week to their abuser.

I think F4J was another way to hit out at women. Nothing more and nothing less.

This isn't a backlash because of feminist gains at all. It's the same old. It is merely that feminists stopped gaining ground and let the rot set back in.

@RealityFan Are you aware of the ‘sad dads’ who dressed up as superheroes because they were denied full access to their wives and children, were often perpetrators of DV and even had a hate campaign against Mumsnet, including taking full page ads out in papers and getting Justine ‘swatted’?

These men are ‘MRA’s who have been trolling us for decades and the whole trans thing has been a gift to them to undo family law and the safeguarding of women and children.

You have been completely suckered in 😲. Or maybe you are one of them?

Maybe this is a classic male v female trope, I genuinely wish no superior attitude. I can see now why my thread might be viewed as "hero on a white Charged". Genuine apologies to those I've pissed off.

I don’t trust OP.