Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

I'm sure you can find some yourself. It would not be too difficult. Take a look at Stonewall or Mermaids, for a start.

“Spyrothedragon23 · Today 09:08ScrollingLeaves don’t worry I have a PHD in a STEM field. Probably why I’m happy to look at data and view points from all areas. I like to make sure I have looked at different view points and not make any emotional decisions. Im very fact driven”

That’s very helpful for you then. My apologies for any presumption you might not be savvy. I have always been grateful to some posters on this board who are evidently rigorously analytical and scientific thinkers.

To me the be problem is not trans people but the insistence they are the sex they say they are ( no scientifically not true it is simple); and that they should be allowed all women’s sex based spaces and provisions.

I think this is the illustration that it is not random prejudice regarding 'trans'.

It is specific pointing out of issues where female women's rights are being removed and damaged by male people who wish to identify as women without reciprocal care for the rest of the sex class they are joining. Or interest in finding ways that work for females as well as males.

And you then have to ask yourself: why are males carrying the power to make this happen and females are being framed as 'vile' for saying things like 'but that excludes these females who pay taxes and need provision too'. And 'these women are homosexual and are not willing to have sex with or be part of lesbian groups with male people'. They do not wish to stop other female people doing these things if they want to: just not to be given the choice of 'do it with males or lose all provision as a punishment'. Which is hardly 'kind' or 'inclusive' is it?

And also then ask yourself why female people identifying as trans are not having this impact on male spaces and services in the same way? What is the impact of a biological female walking into a shower with a group of naked men at a swimming pool? What is the impact of a naked man walking into a shower with a group of naked women at the same pool? Which group will have embarrassment and possibly interest and enjoyment? Which group is likely to be actively fearful and/or have to leave that space?

What's the difference?

How will you achieve that? Inspections on entrance?

"We can always tell".....well they missed the Trans activist with the Soup in NZ.

Bathroom policies have failed in the USA, where they were first tried to be introduced.

I'm with Nicola. It is Predatory Men, not trans people that are the issue. I'm still not seeing any major bathroom issues in the press, other than suspect ones about "wiping my hands on my penis" claims in London. Super weird and was challenged by the transwoman involved.

I don't understand how people can live in such fear of such a minority. It's mind boggling. I can only think that it is echo chambers like these boards that reinforce and amplify unfounded fears from isolated events.

I don't even think I have ever met a transwoman in the ladies. I'm sure I have. I just never noticed.

I've had a post deleted up thread and I've absolutely no idea why!

I didn't say anything I haven't said on MN before.

I mentioned DSD, is that not allowed?

I mentioned post op transsexuals, is that not allowed?

Nothing I said had a derogatory tone or anything. I just simply answered the OP's question.

confused

How will you achieve that? Inspections on entrance?

We’ll simply expect male born trans people to be respectful of spaces reserved for female people, Mish.

They will be respectful, won’t they? They aren’t going to deliberately transgress boundaries knowing they intimidate female-women and female-girls, will they?

Can you please have a word and remind them that they need to respect female people (who are, due to sexual dimorphism of the human species, smaller, less strong, less fast, and able to be impregnated)?

We really do need everyone to agree to the social contract - Your trans mates are lovely, right? So no genital inspections necessary 🤷‍♀️

How do you separate the 'predatory men' from the nice ones? If a male is allowed in, there's no test on the doorway for that either, is there?

And what about the predatory male people who are also genuinely trans such as Katie Dolotowski, Karen White, who used access to female spaces in order to assault their chosen victims?

Interesting that you just expect males to not respect women's needs or rights and do what they want regardless of impact on others?

And now you've told females to stop being silly and scared because you're not (how very lucky you are not to have one of those pesky problems that those women have) - what are you going to do with those females who are still excluded because they cannot enter a space to undress or toilet where male people are?

I can live in such fear of a minority due to experience. I can't give full details but I dealt with more than 1 trans woman who very clearly had severe issues, we had instructions not to be alone with them because they had exhibited violent behaviour. No professional could tell me what, if any, psychological issues they had, but I can say that truthfully I found them very disturbed and disturbing
Would I want them in the ladies with me, or any other female? No. The answer is, no males with females in vulnerable situations.

The oddest of posts stay whilst seemingly innocuous ones go. I tend to just go 'meh'

Otherwise I'd spend most of the day emailing mnhq going why? Why did you do that? Erm no, I don't remember what I said, but why??

So I just go meh!

"How will you achieve that? Inspections on entrance?

"We can always tell".....well they missed the Trans activist with the Soup in NZ."

Let's imagine that trans people refuse to play by the rules. In that situation, you can still mostly tell who is a woman and who is a man.

So some "passing" trans women may indeed get away with it. However, you couldn't just have anyone come in, like a guy with a beard claiming to be a woman.

So some people might think it's better to have a rule and exclude 99.9% or whatever of males, even if the rule can't be perfectly enforced.

I don't understand how people can live in such fear of such a minority

Men are pretty much 50% of the population. Women’s reasons for fearing men are pretty well documented.

Here’s a couple of good reasons women may fear men:

1. The majority of men could physically overpower and kill the majority of women with his bare hands.
2. The majority of men could physically overpower and rape, possibly impregnate, the majority of women.

The way a man identifies makes no difference.

Why is the vile person who wanted KJK bricked yesterday still allowed on here?

If one of us had suggested any actual violence towards trans people we'd be long gone.

Because TRSOH?

Perfect thank you, I have heard of mermaids but completely forgot about them. I shall have a look!

Why is the vile person who wanted KJK bricked yesterday still allowed on here?

They're not any more, apparently - a mod told me they "won't be returning".

At least they've deleted some of their vile ones, again, from last night. But I'm surprised they are still able to post honestly. Their slurs and thoughts of violence against KJK have been sickening.

How brilliant that a poster has so clearly shown that mediocre male athletes claim higher rankings as soon as they enter into the female sport categories.

Thomas was achieving rankings between 300 - 500 positions as a male.

Look at where they rank when they entered the female category.

This poster has not only done a great job of that, but they have also shown that a male with advantages doesn't have to 'win' for it to be still unfair competition.

Imagine someone saying 'that Tour de France competitor with an electric power assisted bicycle didn't win... therefore they should be allowed to continue to compete.'

That is exactly what this poster is saying and they simply cannot understand it.

How ridiculous!

Just because Thomas is beaten by elite female athletes doesn't mean they should be allowed to compete in that competition.

Next they will be saying Thomas should be able to compete in the under 12 year old competition if they don't win, or in the over 80 year old category if they don't win, or in the competition for those with significant visual impairment.

The logic doesn't stand up to scrutiny unless you have a deficit in understanding why female athletes have their own category.

Thank you Musky for providing such a great example of the nonsense that convinces you and others who lack any critical thinking ability.

Let's hope.

Mermaids the lovely company who employed Darren Mews who any 12 year old using mermaids could search his name and find his Twitter feed which had the following available for all to see.

so remember, they are not known for their thorough checking of anything! So I'd double check any statistics or reports they quote.

All emoji whatsits are covering either his own erect penis, anus or some random breasts.

It’s quite funny watching someone ‘present facts’ to win an argument when they are so obviously completely clueless about sports.Silly Musky! 😅
Being beaten by an another athlete does not mean that the loser didn’t have an ‘unfair advantage’
Handing this over to Ross Tucker of the excellent Science of Sport podcast (who look at all types of unfair advantage including shoe tech, doping, running blades used by amputee runners etc.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/leading-sports-scientist-ross-tucker-sheds-light-on-transgender-participation-debate/

Extract (note: pronouns have presumably been decided between Ross and the editor of Swimming World magazine, I am just copy-pasting from the article):

Shouldn’t Transgender Women Unequivocally Dominate?

That (commentary) misunderstands how you assess advantage. For a trans woman to win, she still has to be good enough at the base level without the advantage, in order to parlay that advantage into winning the women’s events. If I was in the Tour de France and you gave me a bicycle with a 100-watt motor, I wouldn’t win the Tour de France. I’d do better than I would have done without it, but I wouldn’t win.
Does my failure to win prove that motors don’t give an advantage? Of course not.
My failure says more about my base level of performance than it does about the motor.

In terms of trans athletes, the retention of biological attributes creates the retention of performance advantages, which means that the person’s ranking relative to their peers’ will go up when they compare themselves to women rather than men. Someone who’s ranked 500 might improve to the 250s, but you still won’t see them on a podium. It’s the change in performance that matters, not the final outcome.

I'll just add when you watch the races LT doesn't win, it's sodding obvious that LT is not going at full pelt.

It's like watching a grown up let a kid win a couple of games. You just know LT could easily win every time, but even LT is aware of the optics on that.

I'm with Nicola. It is Predatory Men, not trans people that are the issue.

Transwomen are part of the 50% group of humans who are male.

Males regardless of their gender identity commit 98% of violent and sexual crimes.

Transwomen, as natal males, have the same offending rates as males in general ( possibly higher).

Transwomen include predatory transwomen (natal males) among their numbers.

Once one man can use the ladies, and the changing rooms, and the swimming area, and the dv refuge, and the women's wards, so can all the others. They don't have to actually 'be trans' whatver the flip that is.

If they get off on exposing themselves to women, or seeing partially dressed women, of hearing women pee, or preventing women from enjoying themselves, or frightening women who have already been victimised (and lucky you if you've never met a man who ticks any of those boxes) then they can go into any space, any time, with any woman. There are no safe spaces any more.

And anyway, a transwoman i.e. a biological male, competing in a women's event, even when not winning, is keeping a biological female out of the team and out of the competition. Taking her place.