Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

It’s annoy me when people talk about individual sports people. There will always been individual males and females who are exceptions to the rule (eg very tall women).

It’s not about individuals. It’s about females as a whole sex class being disadvantage over males as a sex class. Of course we can find individual females who outperform individual males. However all out together females don’t have a chance.

Honestly though if someone wont accept that males have a VERY obvious advantage in sport, then there is very little point in discussing it with that person.

I think I'm fairly centrist in that I believe for most things your biological sex is it relevant (the clothes you wear, your interests and hobbies etc).

However for somethings (sports, reproduction, rape) it's completely relevant and should be treated accordingly.

I honestly don't understand how something that seems so simple to my mind has evolved into something so complex.

@ElonsMusky i am happy to be pointed in the direction of some trans pro threads or data.

For me I like to make sure I have looked at both sides and gather lots of data / facts.

No one born with a penis is female. A person with XY chromosomes is not female. No amount of hormones or surgery makes a male into a female. Be trans, wear dresses, but campaign for 3rd spaces and open sports categories. We will then live in peace. Thank you.

One of the issues with looking at "data" from a pro-trans perspective is that it is highly selective, poorly conducted or misrepresentative.

Everything from trans brains (studies do not account for homosexuality) to the benefits of medical transition (no control groups, small and highly selected sample sizes, follow-up with only a couple of participants, and only after a short time) to suicidality (levels of suicide ideation at the Tavistock were similar for GIDS as for their other services, but comparisons are always made against the general public) to the effects of puberty blockers (there are no long term statistics because we've only recently started offering them for this use) to the impact on crime (inconsistency in record-keeping of sex means data cannot be interrogated), even rates of murder (the oft-cited stat for high murder rates is for South-American trans sex workers, not all trans people) to increases in hate crime (self reported stats, or "non crime incidents like misgendering). Even in the Census, does "no gender identity" mean someone who is gender critical, or someone who believes in gender but is non-binary?

Any statistics or data you are offered really needs you to do a lot of extra reading to break down the collection methods and biases before you even begin.

re: gathering facts

When you have, it could be a good idea to ask some of the scientific people here if the data and methods are robust, peer reviewedetc

These statistics are useful:
https://statsforgender.org/

This Finnish study is useful about the medical treatment of children:
Leor Sapir on Twitter: "The interview highlights just how out of step the U.S. medical establishment is with its European counterparts on pediatric gender medicine. Doctors and medical groups in Finland have been willing and able to stand up to activists, including within their own ranks."
https://twitter.com/LeorSapir/status/1620448056444588033

This Swedish study about transsexual prisoners:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

This is an article about murders of trans people in the U.K. ( There has recently been another tragic one if a trans girl teen in a park, though the trial has not happened yet, and so the motive not established). Then has been another recent murder of a convicted paedophile drag queen ( but not a trans gender person).
https://unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/
You could look up the stats for the murders of women separately,

OP this article is a really good example of what I said earlier about how if activists control the language it’s not long before they attempt to control other stuff. In this case it’s researchers being blocked from carrying out a study because they use the word “male” in relation to the advantage male people have over female people in relation to sports. Article is behind a paywall but if you post the link into archive.ph you’ll be able to read it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/26/transgender-athlete-research-rejected-professor-called-trans/

I agree and disagree with what you've said.

I think someone should be free to dress how they want, call themselves what they want etc., and I would never deliberately refer to them by the name they no longer want to be called etc.

Where I don't I know whether we agree or not: the reason I think someone should be free to dress how they want is because I think gender is a social construct and the TRA view perpetuates gendered stereotypes which are regressive and harmful to both sexes. If little boys want to play with dolls / wear pink dresses etc I absolutely think they should without being teased or without being discouraged etc on the grounds 'they're not normal/need to fit in with other boys'. It's that sort of thing which I think leads to unhappiness and probably this mistaken belief someone is in the 'wrong' body because they're stigmatised for liking things which are 'supposed' to be for the opposite gender.

So I don't think men can become women (and I also don't think they should be in women's toilets as well as prisons and sports). But I think they should be able to dress however they want.

I also suspect the reason many girls and young women feel they are trans men is because they're so battered down by the objectification and pornification and sexual harassment they experience day in day out, at school, on social media etc.

I also don't think anyone's body can be 'wrong' - your body is just your body, it can't be right or wrong. Which is why I think 'being trans' is a mental illness (in the same way anorexia is a mental illness). But I know I can't say that to a trans person / out loud in public or at work for example, I'd be burned at the stake!

It's not really complex though. It's not.

It may be uncomfortable and a bit bewildering for most decent people to realise there is a group (mostly men) who refuse to back down or acknowledge reality and seem to be throwing a temper tantrum at anyone who doesn't agree with them. A bit like a toddler putting their fingers in their ears and screaming 'I WONT' at the top of their lungs. Because we don't expect this behaviour from adults, so it makes us uneasy.
In normal circumstances when you see an adult throwing a strop like this, people tend to back away slowly, as they don't want the hassle.
The fact is, women can't afford to do this - that is what they want us to do, go away quietly cowed. But if we do that the the price we pay, and future generations of women pay is too much.

These men want something they're not entitled to, and want to force others to comply with their delusion - and don't care about the effect it has on women and girls.

God yes this too.

You do realise that this is pretty much what JK Rowling said - and this was the reason she was cancelled and sent rape and death threats.

And I agree with you (and her), because what you are saying is a reasoned and compassionate response.

Why then was she was attacked so viciously for spouting what is a fairly normal reaction to all this?
That is what we are dealing with: compassion, compromise - these are seen as weakness to exploit.

Also historically (for millennia) women have been excluded from spaces kept solely for men so men could hold all the power: government, universities, professions, even just schools, 'gentlemen's clubs': solely so men could hold all the power and knowledge. The ONlY reason men are excluded from women's spaces is for our own safety, to protect us FROM men, and we can't even have that? Christ on a fucking bike.

I would absolutely encourage you to read activist articles and sites OP. Read all you can. Make up your own mind. That's what I did.

Here's one to start with, collected screenshots of activist positions:

https://terfisaslur.com/

Ask yourself as you look at both 'sides': what are the solutions being offered by activists to women excluded by men? How are men's feelings expected to be met compared to how women's feelings are expected to be met? What is the view of the acceptability of violence to control and suppress others? What is 'inclusion' seen to mean?

Completely agree,

The attempted conflation of GC women with alt right/far right/evangelical Christians for example by the TRAs, or even just the young (and naive) 'woke' brigade is infuriating for those of us who have ALWAYS been died in the wool bleeding heart leftie do-gooders! (that being said I'm against identity politics and GC is a broad church, and we're perfectly capable of agreeing on one top with people and disagreeing on others).

Oh and with MN representing women's equality and Terfisaslur representing the proudly held views of activists on women and equality, try this too for a third perspective: written by Miranda Yardley, Transwoman, a number of interesting articles:

https://mirandayardley.com/en/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women/

You may also be very interested to see how activists treat Miranda and other TW who dare to say their perspectives and feelings differ from the Political TQ+ lobby prescribed rightthink. Bear in mind too, that many speakers from the TQ+ political lobby (Owen Jones the journalist is a classic example) do a great deal to push and embed the politics on women, and yet themselves are not TQ+.

Who cares if Lia Thomas was beaten a few times? he's man and therefore shouldn't be competing in the women's competition. End of.

It's like 'Laurel' Hubbard at the Olympics, he didn't win anything - that doesn't really matter, what matters is he's a man and should have competed in the women's weightlifting. He took away a place from a female competitor.

@Farmageddon 100% agree. And JK Rowling is a hero.

Yes, she's my Shero 😁

It's funny though that most people can't actually point out what she said that was so horrible, but they just know that she was transphobic because they heard it somewhere..

'Vile hatred' - women talking about women's issues and needs, and saying that these should not be hurled aside to benefit men with TQ+ identities. Check the thread. You'll find that 'vile' actually means 'viciously insisting on pointing out that a person is male and this does not work for females'. That's it. That's all. That's the 'transphobia'.

Also ask yourself why a conversation about women being excluded by men from provisions such as toilets results in a passionate attempt to talk about a male swimmer in women's competitions? Interesting side bar.

@ScrollingLeaves don’t worry I have a PHD in a STEM field. Probably why I’m happy to look at data and view points from all areas. I like to make sure I have looked at different view points and not make any emotional decisions. Im very fact driven.

Also may be of interest: look at the accounts and videos yesterday of the mob outside of the building where people from the Lesbian Project were meeting.

The crime of those people? To want ONE SOLITARY GROUP for female only lesbians. Alongside every other group that welcomes male people who identify as lesbians, which has excluded many female lesbians who are not willing to be bullied about 'overcoming their genital prejudices' and 'learning to cope' with sex with a male, simply because a male wants to have sex with a female lesbian and frames being told 'no' as 'hate'.

This statement is a contradiction of King’s College London’s actual position seeing as they have banned the research because it uses the scientific, biological term ‘male’ for people who are in fact male.

Shame on them and all “scientists” doing this.

A King’s College London spokesman said: “While we can’t comment on individual research applications, we are strongly committed to ensuring that the research carried out by our staff and students is consistently of the highest quality and to the most rigorous standards."This is important to instill confidence in academic communities, funding bodies, and crucially the public that the data, findings, and results produced by our researchers are sound and trustworthy.”

Slightly aside, this is an interesting article about how “scientific” magazines are now institutionally captured too.

Sex, New Scientist and me | Octavia Sheepshanks | The Critic Magazine
https://thecritic.co.uk/sex-new-scientist-and-me/

@nilsmousehammer really appreciate your comments as a different view point. I find the whole area quite fascinating and everyone’s views.

You are right we don’t talk about transmen, I wonder if that’s to do with the oppression of women (it wasn’t that long ago women couldn’t have bank accounts) so people are are more emotional about women’s rights.

There will always be an emotional bias, though, or some kind of preference nudging your judgment in one direction or another. We are human beings after all - not machines.

Transmen are not talked about so much, because they tend not to be making the same sorts of aggressive demands as transwomen (and those who support them); also because males are not so threatened by females as females ae by males; in sports; or in any other situation.