Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

It's the internalised misogyny thing. Women have to be NICE.

Feminism looks after everyone's needs and never selfishly thinks about itself

Mummy eats last, nobly, from the scraps after she has fed everyone else, silently going hungry so that they might have more.

Patient Griselda: the archetypal Good Woman. With fuck all boundaries, no self respect and a major problem with codependency, in dire need of the Freedom Programme.

Yeah I'll add that with the introduction of requirement for accessible toilets there was a lot of moaning.

But with government behind it, regulations, legal pressure AND government money behind it, and a plan in place, it got done. Not overnight, but it got done. (Disabled people incidentally didn't get to snarl 'well they're not there TODAY so I'm doing what I want and you can't stop me' as many women have heard from male people.)

And again: the disabled lobby did not have very rich, very in with the government, very popular charities and political force behind them to make this shiny, exciting, full of incentive points, and to grease the wheels financially. They just had to patiently stick out all the whingeing.

I don't think people realise how recently disabled toilet provision was protected in law in the same way as men's and women's toilet spaces.

And no it didn't just happen overnight. And unless it's changed in recent years ( I'm no longer current in my knowledge of building regs), you can still even now get away with no disabled toilet provision if the building, or floor space in an existing building is to tight.

It enrages me that men think they can colonise the women's toilets. But when people start offering up the disabled provision, I get ever so annoyed!

But disabled toilets do show its possible when a concerted effort is made.

But if people want to make that concerted effort for new toilets for people who already have toilets I'm not helping them.

you can still even now get away with no disabled toilet provision if the building, or floor space in an existing building is to tight.

As far as I'm aware, yes. 'Reasonable adjustments'. Reasonability being the key thing.

As a wheelchair user, yes, it can really suck. So can many other things regarding accessibility. But reasonability is a thing.

Apologies if this was already posted on this thread: https://mirandayardley.com/en/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women/

How many men are using their limited free time sitting around earnestly discussing amongst themselves how they can improve the lot of random women (be that via toilet provision or anything else)?

Women need a solution to the problems of transwomen that works for us too for our own sake, men don't. Is leaving it to the men to sort it out among themselves going to work in women's favour? Not on past experience.

Women do need to positively support whoever's arguing for third spaces. We're the losers otherwise. Nothing to do with being nice or noble or self sacrificing.

Isn't this what everyone believes? There are no right trans people don't have. They can live their lives. I don't even care about them being in the changing rooms, if they're just going about their business. They've been doing that for decades. I care about situations where there is no choice for women, like losing medals, prisons, being forced to agree with the idea that a rapist who says they're a woman when they get arrested is a woman. Those are abusive men.

Women don't need a solution. We already have a functioning solution. Men don't come in women's toilets.

As for third spaces. They want them. They sort them. Until then everyone uses the correct sex toilets.

If people aren't happy with that they can stay at home and swot up on the history of the urinary leash.

This is not my problem. If they had no provision that would be different. But they have provision. They just don't want to use it. And I refuse to waste energy on people who want extra.

Have they really been in changing rooms for years?

I grant you there may have been transsexuals using Female changing rooms for a long period of time, but there is so few of them that it was almost negligible.

That's not the case now. The TW now don't pass, still have their dicks, are heterosexuals claiming they are lesbians and have often not even taken HRT.

This is not right and it's not what has been happening for years. This argument actually annoys me so much.

So I gave a fuck but was told that it was the wrong fuck.

I gave another fuck but it didn't suit.

I gave another fuck but it wasn't inclusive.

I went to give another fuck but the box was empty. Out of fucks. Over to you

.

@Abccde I make the argument mainly because its the number one thing TRAs keep waving around. The changing room debate is problematic for some, but because enough people "start" there in their framing of their concerns, it's the one TRAs keep saying should be centred on actual outcomes, not perceived fear. Yes, I know, wiispa. I guess I feel like prisons and sport are much more obviously black and white. Changing rooms kind of are the grey area if you presume innocence to start with. So I'd rather skip over that gotcha when debating this with TRAs and just talk about sport.

Changing rooms: That's where your are going wrong. First rule of safeguarding assume no-one is innocent and work from there.

You have to assume that places where women and children will be undressed and vulnerable that men will try to get in there for nafarious reasons first.

That would be my first fuck

@Boiledbeetle Mate, I'm not "going wrong". We're talking about great areas and how to being some nuance to this shit show. Don't tell me my opinion is wrong. We can just agree to disagree.

Grey not great. fucking Google!

cherry have you ever seen the Staniland question? Males and TRAs simply cannot answer truthfully. Changing rooms could probably have the biggest impact on women and girls. Safeguarding is incredibly important but so us dignity and privacy.

Women will self exclude.

It doesn't matter ifnits sometimes possible. It matters if it's always possible. What's the point in third spaces in a few places? What do TW do in other spaces? If you start to pander to the idea that they are not already provided with toilets you clearly open the gates to the idea that somehow there is a problem. There isn't. If they just want to pee, they can. In the toilet allocated to their sex. I don't mind if that position alienates male supremacists. Others, i think, have just not thought things through. What's you actually answer? What should TW do in the spaces that can't provide male toilets, female toilets, disabled toilets and the additional third space toilets? Clearly TW should not use disabled toilets so where should they 'just pee'?

People dontbuse disabled toilets because they're not disabled and also aren't entitled fuckera. That has no relevance to who'd use an open to everyone space. Most dads i know would have taken their kids in that. Many parents would take their buggies in there and small kids. I'd use one I could. You have no data so can't assume you behave a solution.

You're leaving because the ladies have not been kind enough? It's funking ridiculous to live in a world where tras threaten and assault women and to expect tnolllnot to have push back against a request for more funking compromise. You've given no real solution just refused to accept the actual problem..come up with something thought through and people might start to listen.

Exactly. Focus on whats actually important.
The changing room thing isnt practical, infact so many stores have unisex changing rooms anyway? So how come no one was making an issue of that then? Some of this stuff is fine in theory, but doesn't actually work in practice. There are too many variables, again everything will just end up being unisex. It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It doesn’t matter how many ‘third spaces’ are provided. TW don’t want to use third spaces, they want to use the Ladies.

They’re not demanding their own special spaces they’re demanding unfettered access to Women’s spaces.

About right.

Being told by yet another person that they are perfectly fine with sharing spaces misses the entire point.

One male in a female only single sex space makes it single sex. And not one female has the right to give away that space that others need.

It doesn’t matter if someone is fine with it, other women are not. At what point do those women who have given the space away ever acknowledge it wasn’t their’s to give away on behalf of traumatised women?

no fucks left by this stage for me either. Except for females of any age.

Males can't answer truthfully? How are they different to females on that question?

Unisex changing rooms? Do you mean single cubicle?

Or a genuine unisex changing room with multiple people? What stores have that?