Page 13 | Grey area on trans rights

DameMaud · 27/03/2023 12:32

Spyrothedragon23 · 27/03/2023 09:08

@ScrollingLeaves don’t worry I have a PHD in a STEM field. Probably why I’m happy to look at data and view points from all areas. I like to make sure I have looked at different view points and not make any emotional decisions. Im very fact driven.

Hi Spyro, two things I'd recommend from 'this side' of the debate are Eliza Mondegreen's substack (you don't need to subscribe- can just say 'no thanks' to the option:
https://elizamondegreen.substack.com/

And re medical transition academic articles: SEGM.org

gender:hacked by Eliza Mondegreen | Substack

Graduate student researching and writing about all things gender identity. Click to read gender:hacked by Eliza Mondegreen, a Substack publication with thousands of readers.

https://elizamondegreen.substack.com

NecessaryScene · 27/03/2023 12:36

I'll just add when you watch the races LT doesn't win, it's sodding obvious that LT is not going at full pelt.

Didn't Ross Tucker or Emma Hilton or someone do a breakdown of the sector times of some of those races, showing that he's clearly operating way below his peak ability?

Waitwhat23 · 27/03/2023 12:45

MishyJDI · 27/03/2023 09:36

How will you achieve that? Inspections on entrance?

"We can always tell".....well they missed the Trans activist with the Soup in NZ.

Bathroom policies have failed in the USA, where they were first tried to be introduced.

I'm with Nicola. It is Predatory Men, not trans people that are the issue. I'm still not seeing any major bathroom issues in the press, other than suspect ones about "wiping my hands on my penis" claims in London. Super weird and was challenged by the transwoman involved.

I don't understand how people can live in such fear of such a minority. It's mind boggling. I can only think that it is echo chambers like these boards that reinforce and amplify unfounded fears from isolated events.

I don't even think I have ever met a transwoman in the ladies. I'm sure I have. I just never noticed.

Show quote history

You had a good go at the record set on here but you're a way off I'm afraid...

GarlicGrace · 27/03/2023 12:46

loislovesstewie · 27/03/2023 06:14

@GarlicGrace if I could hug you in person I would! You said exactly what I think and a million times better.🤗

Thank you so much! Let's keep saying it ...

Boiledbeetle · 27/03/2023 12:49

NecessaryScene · 27/03/2023 12:36

I'll just add when you watch the races LT doesn't win, it's sodding obvious that LT is not going at full pelt.

Didn't Ross Tucker or Emma Hilton or someone do a breakdown of the sector times of some of those races, showing that he's clearly operating way below his peak ability?

Someone did but I have no clue who it was now. I'm sure one of the posters with enclyclopedias for brains will know exactly who it was though!

Ameanstreakamilewide · 27/03/2023 13:13

Spyrothedragon23 · 26/03/2023 08:49

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

Saying 'live and let live' and 'be kind' is what's got us into this mess.

We gave them an (ill advised) inch and they shit all over the mile they took.

My line in the sand with this bullshit is implacable.

NotHavingIt · 27/03/2023 14:35

MishyJDI · 27/03/2023 09:36

How will you achieve that? Inspections on entrance?

"We can always tell".....well they missed the Trans activist with the Soup in NZ.

Bathroom policies have failed in the USA, where they were first tried to be introduced.

I'm with Nicola. It is Predatory Men, not trans people that are the issue. I'm still not seeing any major bathroom issues in the press, other than suspect ones about "wiping my hands on my penis" claims in London. Super weird and was challenged by the transwoman involved.

I don't understand how people can live in such fear of such a minority. It's mind boggling. I can only think that it is echo chambers like these boards that reinforce and amplify unfounded fears from isolated events.

I don't even think I have ever met a transwoman in the ladies. I'm sure I have. I just never noticed.

Show quote history

I guess you didn't like the truth and honesty of my post in response to yours.
There was nothing there was hateful, just truthful.

It is not about fear - it is about the dignity and privacy of one's sex and not being forced into having validate male feelings or fantasies in women's spaces. Very simple. That is why we have such spaces in the first instance, and why women who are unable to access such spaces are excluded from public life.

anyolddinosaur · 27/03/2023 15:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WildIris · 27/03/2023 16:18

Boiledbeetle · 27/03/2023 10:48

Mermaids the lovely company who employed Darren Mews who any 12 year old using mermaids could search his name and find his Twitter feed which had the following available for all to see.

so remember, they are not known for their thorough checking of anything! So I'd double check any statistics or reports they quote.

All emoji whatsits are covering either his own erect penis, anus or some random breasts.

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Bloody hell!! What?!?

howmanybicycles · 27/03/2023 16:26

I'm with Nicola. It is Predatory Men, not trans people that are the issue.

Most men, include most TW, are not predatory. So you are arguing for abolition of all female-only spaces then? There is no rationale to allow some men in (who are not all predatory) and then not allow all men in (who are not all predatory).

bellinisurge · 27/03/2023 16:27

Tell me how to tell the difference between predatory men and transwomen who "just wanna pee" and we're all sorted

Shelefttheweb · 27/03/2023 16:58

bellinisurge · 27/03/2023 16:27

Tell me how to tell the difference between predatory men and transwomen who "just wanna pee" and we're all sorted

If they are in women’s spaces.

anyolddinosaur · 27/03/2023 18:06

I wonder was my comment deleted because I said I regard my trans relative as mentally ill? I'm afraid you do not know them or what diagnoses/mental health support they have, I am aware of at least one mental health diagnosis.

anyolddinosaur · 27/03/2023 18:07

Or was it the reference to the possible impact of homophobia - again I know them and their family, you dont.

sanluca · 27/03/2023 18:35

*How will you achieve that? Inspections on entrance?

"We can always tell".....well they missed the Trans activist with the Soup in NZ.

Bathroom policies have failed in the USA, where they were first tried to be introduced.

I'm with Nicola. It is Predatory Men, not trans people that are the issue. I'm still not seeing any major bathroom issues in the press, other than suspect ones about "wiping my hands on my penis" claims in London. Super weird and was challenged by the transwoman involved.

I don't understand how people can live in such fear of such a minority. It's mind boggling. I can only think that it is echo chambers like these boards that reinforce and amplify unfounded fears from isolated events.

I don't even think I have ever met a transwoman in the ladies. I'm sure I have. I just never noticed*.

Still on the toilets, Mishy? What about changing rooms, the communal kind? Or sports? Or prisons?

How about men, including transwomen, learn to respect the female sex spaces and stay out of places not meant for them? You know, just be a decent human being. Too much to ask?

anyolddinosaur · 27/03/2023 18:52

NotHavingIt · 27/03/2023 09:22

I'm sure you can find some yourself. It would not be too difficult. Take a look at Stonewall or Mermaids, for a start.

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So lets rephrase my post - I'm quite confident you have already looked there. I have a trans relative. I call them by the name they wish me to use, as is polite. They are treated no differently to the way I have always treated them since I dont treat people differently because of their sex unless I am sexually attracted to them. They also probably know that I consider them the sex they were born, not the one they wish to claim. They may also know I am very angry about the safeguarding failures - and probably homophobia - that have led them into this. One day they may have the sense to detransition but their physical health and that of their trans partner has already been irretrievably damaged. I dont want people who wish to be the opposite sex harmed in any way, they need protection, especially those like my relative who are mentally ill. That doesnt mean their feelings get to replace womens rights.

ILikeDungs · 27/03/2023 19:02

Sorry not RTWT (stuff happening today!! New GS whoop whoop) BUT--

I said im not bothered if a man was present and minding his own business but asked why some women are uncomfortable. To which I did got some good answers, I can see if you’re Muslim and wanting to adjust any clothing it wouldn’t work. Again if you have been sexually assaulted being alone in toilets with a man would be scary.

I really do not understand why we are only allowed to be "uncomfortable" based on religious leanings, or having been sexually assaulted. I do not need any excuse for feeling uncomfortable having men in my spaces. I am simply uncomfortable if men are in my spaces. Safety, dignity, privacy. All of those exclude males however they identify.

My brother "transitioned" at 55. Do I want to shower beside him? Fuck that. Hell no. I am willing to be equally rude to strangers. How is that so hard for people to understand?

The wording of this is interesting: I said im not bothered if a man was present and minding his own business... I firmly believe that if no man is present we do not need to worry if he is minding his own business or not.

EndlessTea · 27/03/2023 19:07

Totally @ILikeDungs

How about men are polite, decent and respect our fucking boundaries? How about that?

Why should we need to endlessly turn ourselves inside out and upside down to justify something so basic.

Blokes do not belong in women’s spaces.

Any bloke who enters a women’s space is violating the social contract and is de facto being antisocial and domineering towards women.

Stay the fuck out fellas - even if you’re wearing a dress or got implants.

commonsense61 · 27/03/2023 19:16

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

EndlessTea · 27/03/2023 19:26

I’m feeling a bit ranty because I listened to that The Platform thread just now about the NZ women just wanting to read a poem.

Regarding the social contract.

If you see a sign that says say ‘staff only’ and you are not a member of staff, but you go in anyway, what sort of a person are you? Is it up to the staff to have to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to get out?

If you see a sign that says “no smoking” and you light up a cigarette in front of it. What sort of person are you? Is it up to the people around you to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to put your cigarette out?

If you see a sign that says “women’s” and you are a man, born with penis and testes, and you go in anyway, what sort of person are you? Is it up to the women to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to give them privacy?

In all three cases, you are a disrespectful transgressor or boundaries. No one owes you an explanation, the onus is on you to act in accordance with the rules.

Why is there this bizarre notion that women need to argue the case, provide men with evidence and plead with them to respect out boundaries?

No.

Read the signs.

This is not for you.

You do no belong here.

Get out.

Boiledbeetle · 27/03/2023 19:34

WildIris · 27/03/2023 16:18

Bloody hell!! What?!?

Show quote history

You do not want to see the unedited version! You can't anyway as mnhq delete it if i post it without the stickers!

DameMaud · 27/03/2023 19:37

EndlessTea · 27/03/2023 19:26

I’m feeling a bit ranty because I listened to that The Platform thread just now about the NZ women just wanting to read a poem.

Regarding the social contract.

If you see a sign that says say ‘staff only’ and you are not a member of staff, but you go in anyway, what sort of a person are you? Is it up to the staff to have to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to get out?

If you see a sign that says “no smoking” and you light up a cigarette in front of it. What sort of person are you? Is it up to the people around you to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to put your cigarette out?

If you see a sign that says “women’s” and you are a man, born with penis and testes, and you go in anyway, what sort of person are you? Is it up to the women to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to give them privacy?

In all three cases, you are a disrespectful transgressor or boundaries. No one owes you an explanation, the onus is on you to act in accordance with the rules.

Why is there this bizarre notion that women need to argue the case, provide men with evidence and plead with them to respect out boundaries?

No.

Read the signs.

This is not for you.

You do no belong here.

Get out.

👋
Feeling and appreciating the energy of the rant Endless

Boiledbeetle · 27/03/2023 19:38

EndlessTea · 27/03/2023 19:26

I’m feeling a bit ranty because I listened to that The Platform thread just now about the NZ women just wanting to read a poem.

Regarding the social contract.

If you see a sign that says say ‘staff only’ and you are not a member of staff, but you go in anyway, what sort of a person are you? Is it up to the staff to have to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to get out?

If you see a sign that says “no smoking” and you light up a cigarette in front of it. What sort of person are you? Is it up to the people around you to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to put your cigarette out?

If you see a sign that says “women’s” and you are a man, born with penis and testes, and you go in anyway, what sort of person are you? Is it up to the women to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to give them privacy?

In all three cases, you are a disrespectful transgressor or boundaries. No one owes you an explanation, the onus is on you to act in accordance with the rules.

Why is there this bizarre notion that women need to argue the case, provide men with evidence and plead with them to respect out boundaries?

No.

Read the signs.

This is not for you.

You do no belong here.

Get out.

I'm on part three right now. So your post saves me from a rant!

So...

What she said!

GailBlancheViola · 27/03/2023 19:43

EndlessTea · 27/03/2023 19:26

I’m feeling a bit ranty because I listened to that The Platform thread just now about the NZ women just wanting to read a poem.

Regarding the social contract.

If you see a sign that says say ‘staff only’ and you are not a member of staff, but you go in anyway, what sort of a person are you? Is it up to the staff to have to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to get out?

If you see a sign that says “no smoking” and you light up a cigarette in front of it. What sort of person are you? Is it up to the people around you to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to put your cigarette out?

If you see a sign that says “women’s” and you are a man, born with penis and testes, and you go in anyway, what sort of person are you? Is it up to the women to argue the case, provide you with evidence and plead with you to give them privacy?

In all three cases, you are a disrespectful transgressor or boundaries. No one owes you an explanation, the onus is on you to act in accordance with the rules.

Why is there this bizarre notion that women need to argue the case, provide men with evidence and plead with them to respect out boundaries?

No.

Read the signs.

This is not for you.

You do no belong here.

Get out.

Quite right.

Why do women have to justify it when they say NO - men don't, why would that be? Men's 'No' is accepted immediately, it is respected, not questioned, no request for evidence or justification.

The reason of course is that women are viewed as second class (if that) sub humans whose 'No' must be interrogated when it conflicts with what men want.

It is pure, unadulterated hatred and dismissal of women.

If ONE woman says 'No' to men, any fucking men, whatever they are wearing, whatever they believe themselves to be, then it is NO across the board - no ifs, buts or maybes.

TheBiologyStupid · 27/03/2023 20:11

Spyrothedragon23 · 26/03/2023 08:49

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

In the words of J.K. Rowling:

"Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real? #IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill"
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

Apparently saying that makes her an evil transphobe. FFS!

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033