Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

Yes, not communal, single cubical but unisex. Alot of the bigger department stores. Definitely not multiple people!!

That isn't going to bother people as much, because there is no invasion of privacy.

Primark??? No issues?

Anyone mentioned the men wanking into/on/with the women's lingerie in m and s in the women's charging rooms then leaving their mess for staff/the next customer to deal with?

But existing spaces often can't put them in place and they should never detract from disabled facilities. What's the point in third spaces only in new builds? The entitled version of TW will still abuse female spaces and we'd have set-up some sort of expectation that they're needed.

@Spyrothedragon23

Most people do see the grey, even with the sports there's grey (elite and contact sports are different to friendly amateur non contact sports for fun). Ideally we can have arrangements that suit all eg for toilet a block of female, a block of male, and a block of neutral self contained which suit those who need to for instance take an opposite sex older child or ambulatory disabled person to the toilet too.

I completely disagree there is a grey area in sports. Even when playing sports for fun, there always should be the option for single sex for girls and women. It is well known a lot of girls stop playing sports when puberty hits as they don't want to deal with periods, changing bodies etc. To then throw in additional hurdles by making them play boys and take away chances to shine.. no, not on. And why should they have to? Because we feel sorry for the boys struggling with their gender identity? No. Girls sports is not a consolation tool for boys who have it difficult.

Also, where do you think star athletes come from? Thin air? No, it takes years of dedication and hard work. If girls are even more deterred by making them share changing rooms and play against boys, then star athletes in the making will stop as well. So at elite level you no longer have the best female athletes, you just have the ones that dealt best with sharing with boys.

I have spent years accompanying my own daughter in her sports and seen the perseverance of her and her teammates to get to star level and to then have that potentially taken away? Or for the future female generation?

No.

^^ absolutely this.

And I reiterate, why aren't men slated for not helping sort out toilets/sports/ every other bloody thing for trans people?

It's only womens problem more than mens in so far as our rights are being given away!

It's only womens problem more than mens in so far as our rights are being given away!

Given away by submissive craven women and taken away by aggressive entitled men, a perfect misogynistic storm.

Most males and all TRAs (and some bekind women) cannot answer the Staniland question truthfully (I don't think that poster was suggesting that no men can ever be truthful).

Helen Staniland posed this question to highlight the reality of trans women in women only spaces:
"Do you believe that male-bodied people with a penis should have the right to undress in front of women and young girls?"

The most sensible answer I have seen by a TRA began by saying that "nobody has a right to undress in front of anyone, neither legally nor morally."

So far, so sensible.

Unfortunately they then went on to say that :
"In the same vein, it is understood that if you enter a changing room, you consent to be naked in front of whoever is permitted to be in there. If you wish to challenge that understanding however, the situation does not play the way Staniland would prefer."

And that is the crux of the matter. I don't believe that by entering a ladies/ women's/ female only space that I have consented to be naked in front of men. This suggests that if I'm not happy to be there, I should just self exclude. And we are back to the urinary leash, etc.

The problem is not one of me foolishly giving misplaced consent (nice bit of subtle victim blaming there). The problem is the word "permitted". The argument is over who should be permitted to be there. And that brings us nicely back to Helen's original question....

So the next question is: what do we do about it?

I would argue, as many others have done here, that this is not womens problem to solve. Generally speaking, the onus is on the person / group who wants to challenge the status quo to come up with evidence as to why that should happen, and a workable solution. Not just stamp their feet and shout 'BUT I WANT IT!!!'

I agree with @sanluca. Single sex, or single sex option for girls/women. Males have an advantage from the start. Boys are bigger at birth and get two mini boosts of testosterone before actual puberty. The performance advantage of boys over girls has been measured and is significant even before puberty. There is a little window when the gap closes a bit, because girls start puberty earlier than boys and so have their growth spurt earlier. So a very athletic or talented 12-year-old girl might be more competitive with boys her age or slightly younger, but this is temporary. So it makes no difference if the sport is contact or non-contact, or whether it's the Olympic trials or a fun kickabout in the back garden - girls and women will be significantly disadvantaged if they have to compete against boys. Additionally, they may have to contend with some unpleasant behaviour. Boys notoriously won't pass to the girls in football games in the school playground. Some men will swim over women if they reckon they're not going fast enough. In mixed netball, men elbow women out of the way. (A harder elbowing than from a fellow female!) It makes the whole experience less pleasant and some women and girls will drift away from sport. It's vital not to discourage women and girls from participating not just because we may be losing a potential champion, but because sport confers so many other benefits which they will also miss out on.

I agree with you about what would be the ideal situation with toilets for the reasons you state - those are real issues for people.

@crunchermuncher
Very well put.

And ditto to all PPs saying it isn't women's job to come up with solutions or campaign for third spaces which men claiming to be women don't want and wouldn't use anyway. Our job is to keep male people out of women's single sex facilities.

From the polling I have seen, males are more protective of single sex spaces than women are.

The other side of this is then you get nowhere. Think about the office worker who just complains but never offers solutions ... food for thought

@Whenharrymetsmelly

I've thought about it. My choices are:
campaigning for third spaces that will not be used and therefore additionally having to defend women's single sex spaces
OR
defending women's single sex spaces.

I choose to defend women's single sex spaces.

Everyone is catered for in the current communal single sex/single user provision. If some people want to self-exclude from the facilities intended for them, which they have been using all their lives, the responsibility for finding alternative provision is theirs.

But in your analogy, the office worker who complains is the person who wants to change something, ie the food.

Women don't want to change what we have.

In your analogy, Women would be people who are quite happy with the office food, only problem is someone else is campaigning to change it!

Why do we need to offer solutions? As many others have said upthread, we have done, for years. Those solutions are never accepted. The vast majority of TRAs and vocal allies (note:not all trans people) want women's spaces. They don't want compromise.

Why is this concept so difficult for some to grasp?

PorcelinaV perhaps men generally are more supportive* *of women's spaces according to polls, but the ones who hold power, the ones in politics, the ones who are campaigning for change around the issue are generally in the TWAW camp (with notable exceptions such as the wonderful Glinner). How many politicians are prepared to stand up and say 'yes, women ie natal females should be able to have spaces free of penises' ?

All the posters on here saying that TW are somehow 'unsafe' in men's toilets do please tell me the people pictured below would be unsafe in men's toilets and then tell me why women should be happy to welcome them into the women's toilets and feel all safe and warm with them. Go on I dare you.

If you say but not all TW are like that then remember if one TW is allowed in they are all allowed in and that includes those pictured.

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/23419119.zara-jade-will-serve-sentence-male-prison-moj-says/

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/01/29/01/67082917-0-image-a-57_1674957248967.jpg

As for I don't mind if they are in the cubicle next to me minding their own business - I, and many other women, DO fucking mind.

No to ANY males in female spaces.

And they are minding their own business until they aren't. IYSWIM. So if you take that view at what point do you think they are not minding their own business?

A solution has been repeatedly offered - break down the sexist conceptualisation of gender so that men and women do not have to feel constrained by old-fashioned stereotypes. That is really what is making it hard for some men to feel comfortable peeing in the men's toilets. This solution also prevents 1000s of kids doing things to their bodies which cause permanent harm and infertility. It's an awful lot better of a solution than 'allow any bloke who wants to into the 'ladies' loos. The problem is that men don't want that solution. Why not? Perhaps because it's not serving their real aims.

The problem is that men don't want that solution. Why not? Perhaps because it's not serving their real aims.

If all the rainbow-washing was replaced by a "You can pee with me" campaign from the likes of Owen Jones, Billy Bragg & Tom Daley to make GNC males feel safe in the men's loos, that might actually have been helpful.

I have to agree, that does pre suppose the desired outcome is to pee safely in mens loos.

But it's just another of the potential posed problems flailing around in an attempt to find one that fits with the desired outcome of men in women's spaces.

it's just another of the potential posed problems flailing around in an attempt to find one that fits with the desired outcome of men in women's spaces.

And provide men who hate women with a socially sanctioned way to bully, dominate and antagonise women. That’s an important bonus.

Yes! It's quite clear from all of this that the chance to abuse women publicly is being utilised fully by some men who are delighted. All while calling themselves progressive and kind...

It's so obvious when you see the reaction to men who speak out vs. women.

Hmm, bonus or the real aim?