Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

OP, if you've not previously seen it, this thread is an excellent resource. Datun's post on the 1st page in particular as a starting point -

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Another thread which is incredibly useful is the 'it'll never happen' thread -
teenagers.Wikipedia

·

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Lots of us started where you are now. But once you've got to the top of the hill, it's impossible to see to not see the naked hatred of women by TRA's.

you say you aren't bothered about opposite sex people in toilets but you don't really have to the right to give away the rights of ALL women to have single sex toilets. Most women prefer single sex toilets

Campaigns should be for single sex toilets for male and female and a third "welcome all genders" - but that is never advocated.

Trans identifying males just want women to budge over, not men be kinder.

Female toilets are safe because we know there are no men there.
As soon as a man can say 'I am a woman' and go in they are no longer safe.
Especially with de facto self id.

Previously you saw a man in female toilets, knew they were up to no good, could challenge them or call for help etc.
Now women are afraid to do that for fear of being called transphobic or being accused of a hate crime.

Have you seen the cases of male rapists identifying as female to try to get into women's prisons?

Rape or SA survivors, muslim women wanting to adjust their hijab, or any other female, deserve the right to single sex spaces for privacy, dignity and safety.

Has there been a rise in assaults in mixed sex female spaces? Yes. The American store tracked their changing rooms and there was a big increase.

Do you lock your house when you leave it? Well if someone's determined to break in, they will, so why do you still lock it?

And it's lovely that you don't mind using a mixed sex toilet. That's great for you. What do you suggest happens for the women who cannot go into a mixed sex toilet, because of their Autism, faith, culture, trauma, disability? Where's their kindness and inclusion?

I mean, you've almost answered your own question there.

The first point to respond is that you (specifically you not general you) can't consent to mixed sex facilities on behalf of all women and girls. In terms of group consent, the "no"s have to override the "yes"s.

And yes, of course there are plenty of women who for different reasons would be unable to use mixed sex facilities.

People have already said on this thread that third spaces are the answer. Additional mixed sex facilities? Knock yourself out, you can use them, fantastic. Whilst single sex facilities remain for those who need or simply just prefer them.

And also yes, voyeurism and sexual assaults/harassment are more prevalent in mixed sex facilities. Because men who are likely to commit those offences have a legitimate reason to be in the facilities and so no one can challenge them. There's not risk to them entering those facilities.

Has there been a rise in sexual assaults in toilets? Or is it because some females have been in bad relationships/ abused in the past they don’t feel comfortable with biological men in the female toilets?

What's the point of having female toilets if men can use them? Do you think they should all be mixed sex?

Google Katie Dolatowski.

Why do we have single sex toilets or changing rooms?

We don’t have them because all men are rapists. We have them because some men are predators or fetishists. It’s a blanket protection for women and girls, who are as a sex physically vulnerable to sexual assault, intimidation etc.

If you bend the rules for blokes in dresses you might as well just have mixed sex toilets everywhere (which does seem to be the case increasingly).

This isn’t progressive to me. It’s breaching women’s safety and importantly, their sense of safety and privacy and dignity, to accommodate the ‘feels’ of a small proportion of men.

What do you think the point of single sex toilets was in the first place?

You may also OP find it useful to look at the really revolting conversations on Twitter and Reddit where male people share pictures with each other of wanking in women's toilets, turned on by being there with women around them with knickers down, peeing, and themselves being in that intimate space. And the males who like to raid the san pro bins and put the used tampons up their bums, particularly enjoying the still warm ones. And that photo of the chap with the sword, ready to presumably kill any female who looked alarmed or distressed at encountering them in an enclosed space where they thought they could safely undress and pee.

The grey area seems to be getting a bit darker.

If a fox is getting bullied by other foxes, the answer isn't to put it into the hen house.

As soon as anyone starts with the, 'they'll donor anyway' argument, I question the 'just want to learn' narrative. By excluding ALL men, women are more able to challenge, call a bouncer, ask for footage, so on. Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

You might not care. My 13yo doesn't want to rustle sanitary packaging with a grown man in the next cubicle. I had a double buggy for 2 years and often left the door a bit open so as not to desert the kids. Several of my friends adjust hijab in the communal area. I've often had to wash blood from my hands due to horrific periods. Why do all those things not matter if a man wants validation?

With regards to toilets - I don't have as strong feelings as some, but ultimately if you say yes to toilets, you are then making argument for access to the next space easier.

Let's be clear, they don't consider women at all. If they did they would be campaigning for 3rd spaces.

They want full access to ALL women's spaces. Why? It's a predatory act.

I think the must useful parallel is with religion. I'm not religious. I don't believe. But I have friends and colleagues who are Christians and Muslims. I don't try to change their minds. Social arrangements respect their "needs" to eat after sunset, go to church, etc. I respect the workplace prayer room that's been provided for them. I don't wish to argue about religion with them.

But the thing is they also respect me. They don't expect me to believe and don't require me to pretend to believe. I'd like it to be the same with trans-believing folks. They can believe in a gendered soul - it's a profoundly held belief for many (just like god) But they need to respect that others don't believe. Pronouns are a particularly tricky issue as you can argue that using preferred pronouns is showing respect and kindness to trans people. But you can also argue that using a pronoun that feels wrong to you (as the speaker) is like being asked to pray to a god you don't believe in.

When you look at the history of religion the parallel runs even deeper - Protestants and Catholics sought to kill or covert one another in Britain. People had to pretend to believe what they didn't or practice their beliefs underground. We just need to reach the modern day religious live-and-let-live state, but preferably without bloodshed and so much conflict on the way there.

You might also want to have a look online at just how many hidden cameras there are in female facilities where men have free access, and how many men with identities use them to make gross exhibitionist porn.

Ask yourself why you bring up the topic of toilets? Is it because it is the one area where most people aren't bothered or don't want to make a thing out of it? I have noticed many times that most transactivists want to focus on this area, soley to wedge the idea in sharing with male people is fine.

So say all toilets are mixed sex (no urinals). Some women can't use them anymore, but let them deal with it.

Then transactivists move onto changing rooms. All cubicle setup and mixed sex, even though for mixed sex areas in leisure centers have more incidents than split sex, but hey, incidents and if women don't like it, they can stay at home.

Then sports.
Then hospital wards.
Then prisons.

Where do YOU draw the line? It is 'meet me in the middle' brought to life and it always, always starts with toilets.

To stop the 'meet me in the middle', women go right back to the beginning and say no to any male in the toilets.

The basic question for me OP:

Is it ok to exclude a good number of female people from having access to any toilets so that less than 1% of male people can take their preferred choice from all the toilets and be happier?

Is inclusion actually inclusion if including men in a women's space actually excludes women from the women's space?

Going back to the pronouns thing, sure. If it's a friend who feels so miserable you want to make them feel you see them as the opposite sex, sure. Go ahead. The problem is when it becomes entrenched. Do you want to call Isla Bryson 'her' and have his victims forced to say 'she' in court? Do you want your children to ignore every instinct they have and lie? Do you want your young girls to take the silent inference that any male who like the stereotypical trappings of femininity must be female and therefore drop their boundaries? Because as soon as you accept pronouns as a language someone else can dictate, that is what you are doing.

Do you mean something like:

Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?

Yes, that's a fairly mainstream opinion. However you can tell from the reaction that JKR got for her tweet that there isn't any grey area possible. Only total capitulation will do.

Yep. We don't care about the clothes, the name, the hair, the makeup.

Spaces are either single sex, in which case transwomen should not be in them, or they're single gender in which case it doesn't matter.

It's fairly easy to work out whether something is a single sex space - does it exist because of our biological reality of being female? Sport, female rape survivors facilities, single sex wards, female changing facilities, female toilets.

Did women have to fight to get this space (all of the above)? Then it's almost certainly single sex.

Single gender spaces? I can't really think of any tbh - possibly some religious spaces, but that's up to religious people to organise. Hen nights? Ann Summers parties? Have your fill - not bothered about who is in these spaces.

Your grey areas argument is accepted by most gender critical women, albeit we can start to feel more hardline because it's fucking exhausting tbh.

Your grey areas are wholely rejected by the most vocal and politically influential TRAs. It's all or... Well it's all. They want no distinction made.between women and transwomen in any sphere of life.

I felt the same way you do, unfortunately the TRAs aren't campaigning to be allowed to wear what they want or change their name, there's no need they already have those rights along with everyone else. They're fighting for access to women's sports, safe spaces and even fucking prisons so no there's no grey area 🤷

Toilets are single sex spaces and should remain so. You can't give away other women's rights.

I don't believe that we should be moving down a third toilet category or have unisex toilets. I believe that this gives credence to the gender ideology and will send out the wrong message young people.

I don't think this is a grey area om "rights" - trans rights and womens rights are both human rights and there's no grey area when it comes to genuine rights.

however a lot of the TRA demands conflate "desires" with "rights"

no one has the right to compel someone else to believe something they don't believe, or to pretend that they do. that's not a grey area in "rights".

if facilities or opportunities are sex-segregated then the reason why they are segregated is usually due to biological reality and so the feminine gender feelings of someone with a male physiology aren't relevant. that's not a rights issue either.

it's perfectly possible to uphold all rational and important rights of trans people without championing their desires for going beyond these rights to the point that they reduce the rights of female people.

In no particular order:

1. you say I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. This is the position of almost everyone on this board I'd day. We do get the odd attempt at forced teaming from people who love gender and think all men should be masculine and all women should be feminine, but they generally don't last long
2. implicit in your statement is acceptance of a gender binary. I presume you're a woman. Can you define the gender you have? what are its characteristics? do all women share those?
3. If to 'be kind' you agree to state that this person you can see is a man is a woman, what other things that aren't true will you say or go along with? whose interest is it in to get society to lie to itself?
4. you're OK with men in the women's loos. Do all other women have to share your boundaries or can they state them for themselves?
5. If we agree to call some men women, how do we keep those men out of women's sports, prisons and hospital wards? you've just said that man is a woman, so he belongs there, right?