Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

It’s good that here on MN we can vehemently disagree and still carry on talking here - it’s getting to be a lost art elsewhere online!

Here here!!

I'm afraid it's worse than the minor inconveniences of 'can't adjust your head dress' and 'a bit scary'.

There are women in orthodox faiths, cultures including Gypsy/Romany, who just plain cannot enter a space where a male is. How the male feels inside their head and dresses has no bearing. They are excluded the moment a male person walks in. A Muslim friend of mine regularly used to come to work with a black eye from male relatives disapproving of her doing anything that breached their strict management of her movements, staff meals etc were not allowed if male staff were present. There's no point in telling her to leave and abandon her child, her family, because male people have decided to make her life just one bit more complicated, and don't care about the realities of being female for some women. You think she would ever be permitted in a toilet once those male relatives realise there are potentially males in there with her? She lost her female only swim to male people wishing to identify into it. So have many other women who cannot undress around males and cannot predicate their lives around what a male says is currently happening between their ears.

People are always going on about 'their lovely TW friend' - they rarely mention lovely friends like the Jewish women who can no longer swim at Hampstead because TW fussed until they controlled all three pools. Their Muslim friend who cannot use public toilets or changing rooms at all any more. Their Autistic friend who cannot lie and pretend against the evidence of their eyes, and so cannot use a toilet where a male is wishing females to create the illusion of their being a woman for their personal benefit. It is an act not only of supreme selfishness but active exclusion. Exercising of the greater power of males to invade and dominate than females to say no to them.

As for a woman who has suffered DV/DA/CSA and has PTSD - you may want to read a bit of some of the women on the relationships board and realise what it means to a woman who has had a bloke abuse her for years and/or try to kill her, to be driven to shaking, frozen terror because a strange male voice is heard in a space she thought was female only. 'A bit scary' is a pretty offensive minimisation of the reality, but this is normal - minimising and dismissing the realities of females is an every day thing. They aren't an interesting group like TW and they're not men, so no one cares.

But I do, and every decent woman should. Unless they really do believe that being born with a penis makes you a higher class kind of human, and being born without a penis comes with a duty of service to men.

Unless they really do believe that being born with a penis makes you a higher class kind of human, and being born without a penis comes with a duty of service to men.

This is what it comes down to really. One of the most depressing things about the last few years is that this whole movement has laid bare the fact that for many people (particularly those in power) 'women's rights' is just meaningless lip service to get a good sound bite.
As soon as women's needs come into conflict with men's wants - women are thrown under the bus. Time and time again, there are so many examples of this - and when we point this out we are told to 'be kind', or that we are overreacting, or that it's not a big deal etc.

Whoever said upthread that the only reason this is out in the open is that women stood up time and time again and kept saying no, kept on speaking up is so right. We were just supposed to sit down and take it, we weren't supposed to push back.
You realise when you see the ridiculous overreaction of some men regarding this that they are shocked when women actually assert boundaries, they get very angry because we aren't supposed to.

@nilsmousehammer excellent post. You have said exactly how I feel.

When a grown man , in the name of trans inclusion and tolerance thinks it's OK to punch a 70 year old woman in the head for just wanting to talk about women there stops being a grey area.

Farm

Just nailed it absolutely

Oh look, it's Bill Nye.
Found that clownfish YouTube clip yet?

instead of harassing me, why not challenge what I said?

Was Lia's time beaten more than once by cis girls younger than her, or not?

I'll wait...

‘Tell me you don’t know what sporting advantage is without admitting you don’t know what sporting advantage is’

😆

I'll ask you the same question. Simple yes or no will suffice.

Was Lia's time beaten multiple times by cis girls younger than her, or not? Stop deflecting. It's pathetic.

Mainly because you haven't provided the evidence of your claim and I can't find any evidence of it from Google.
There's that one race where a 'trans man' beat her, but that in your religion doesn't make her beaten by a cis, does it.
Gotta admit I'm a bit sceptical at a race where two religious fanatics compete happens to show their biology defying religion to be 'true'

I think you are confused by how things work. If you make a claim it is up to you to find the evidence for it. Hence I am asking for evidence of your previous claim that some men are women.
It's not up to me to prove batshit theories. I ain't got time to prove every flat earther and sex denier wrong. The onus is on you to prove why reality is wrong.

I do remember the multiple reports of that person wandering around the changing rooms with their penis out though.

Says the person who spews vile insults regularly.

Here's the person who has no 'magical advantage' in case anyone is unfamiliar with the case.

When society gives away women's words either by design or through kindness ie use of preferred pronouns we end up in a place where men are more women than us

trans women are women

cis women are cis women

Lia Thomas time was shattered by multiple cis swimmers

Correct! Lia’s times were shattered by multiple cis swimmers.

It’s why Lia decided to ID on to the girls team, because Lia was not capable of beating other men.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html

"In the 100 yard race, her time is 55th out of 56 in The Independent's data, and her time in the 200 yard race is the 31st out of 5.Her 500 yard time of 4m 33.24 is just above the average (4m 36.07s), while her 100 yard time of 48.18s is just below average (47.06s), as is her 200 yard time of 1m 43.24s (compared to 1m42.85).The Independent also looked at numbers for the 500 yard men's race, where Ms Thomas has competed at a high level in both men's and women's events, from 2015 to 2021. There, her finishing time is more than 20 seconds below the men's average."

She's an average swimmer, by women's swimming standards.

https://swimswam.com/sims-and-grimes-swim-sub-430-500-frees-four-girls-faster-than-2022-ncaas-winning-time/

All-Time Top Performers, Women’s 500 Free (no Lia?)
Katie Ledecky, Stanford — 4:24.06 (2017)
Summer McIntosh, Sarasota Sharks — 4:27.53 (2022)
Bella Sims, Sandpipers of Nevada — 4:28.64 (2022)
Leah Smith, Virginia — 4:28.90 (2017)
Katie Grimes, Sandpipers of Nevada — 4:29.53 (2022)
Katie Hoff, North Baltimore Aquatic Club — 4:30.47 (2007)
Dagny Knutson, A.S.K Swim — 4:31.18 (2009)
Brooke Forde, Stanford — 4:31.34 (2019)
Cierra Runge, Cal — 4:31.90 (2015)
Allison Schmitt, North Baltimore Aquatic Club (2015)

15-16 year old girls besting Lia's time....(some male advantage eh?)
All Time Top Performers, Girls’ 500 Free, 15-16 Age Group:
Summer McIntosh, Sarasota Sharks — 4:27.53 (2022)
Katie Ledecky, NCAP — 4:28.71 (2014)
Katie Grimes, Sandpipers of Nevada — 4:29.53 (2022)
Bella Sims, Sandpipers of Nevada — 4:32.13 (2021)
Claire Weinstein, Sandpipers of Nevada — 4:33.03 (2022)
Bailey Hartman, Crow Canyon Country Club Sharks — 4:33.72 (2022)

"Notably, McIntosh, Sims, Grimes, and Weinstein were all faster than Lia Thomas‘s time of 4:33.24"

wow, that was hard to find on google.

I have not RTWT. I'm aware others have said this, and have helpfully filled in some of the background. It's very simple for me:

I'm an old feminist, you know, the ones who won most of the fucking rights after getting a vote. One of 2nd-wave feminism's foundations is that we are CRITICAL OF GENDER. Gender's the pile of bollocks that says women are too fragile-minded to vote, men are too rigid to have emotions, girls love sewing and nurturing, boys love engineering and fighting, etc, etc. As if all this crap weren't bad enough in terms of human development, gender also says women and 'feminine' things are significantly less valuable than men and 'masculinity'.
So, clearly, it has to go.

But it has millennia of social entrenchment behind it so, as well as the fights for changes in the law and public representation, the social elements have to be changed. It's a long job; there are thousands of damn elements. One really good way to break social acceptance is just to subvert it. Women in 'Western' countries looked at things like workwear rules and went "fuck that, we're wearing trousers!" We looked at professional roles and started signing up for STEM. We looked at the housework and said "Do the washing up, mate, or you're history."

Men, having the advantage of the gender system, have been a bit slower to challenge it. But they do have a softer side, most are nurturing, many are creative and none are too stupid to keep a household running. Things changed. With the really obvious stuff like self-decoration and clothing choices, they actually did start to get it in the 1970s-1990s and feminists welcomed this. If you want to undermine gender systems, you really want to see guys in swishy outfits and painted faces!

None of this, obviously, means anyone was changing sex. The ENTIRE point is that your sex does not dictate your behaviour, personality, social role or economic status. You as an individual express your individual self, free of rules that absurdly limit your potentials depending on your sex. Your sex is what it is, like your height or skin colour. Your preferences, talents and character are what they are.

This poxy 'trans' movement is the most regressive thing that's happened for centuries. Not only does it push everyone back into gendered categories, it actually demands that anyone who doesn't fit the 'gender' allotted to their sex must change sex! It's fucking bananas. Not only because it's reminiscent of the most repressive religious authorities throughout history; not only because hardly anyone actually fits a 'masculine' or 'feminine' stereotype. But because changing sex is actually impossible. Untold medical harm is being done to swathes of young people in service of this backward, restrictive, unfeasible ideology.

I'm afraid for women. I'm afraid for the advances we have made towards a freer, more equal society. I'm sad for the small, everyday losses to most people's lives that will come with gender enforcement. I'm sad about the lost opportunities and increased danger to both female people and homosexual people of either sex. I'm totally astonished that so many have placidly accepted this ludicrous theory, and horrified at the medical enforcement.

Grey areas? No, unless you mean the pre-'trans' developments of male creatives in makeup and female engineers in boilersuits. That wasn't about changing sex, it was about proudly being your sex free of 'gender'. Transgenderism's more like Nero having his fuckboys castrated: a 2,000 year old imposition of gender roles, consequences be damned.

BUtWhAtAbOutIntERSeX? Transgenderists lie about this. Disorders/Differences of Sexual Development are abnormalities in the reproductive system, just like cleft palate is an orofacial abnormality and hole in the heart is an abnormality. Literal hermaphrodites - who would have the functioning reproductive organs of both sexes - don't exist and have never been recorded. Medical 'hermaphrodites' have some working tissue of both sexes, usually ovarian & testicular (ovotestes), which remains partially developed and inside the body. The term hermaphrodite has fallen out of favour because it's misleading. Only a handful of people with dual-sex gonadal tissue are born each generation.

The vast majority of DSDs are simple malformations, meaning the baby might not be obviously a girl or boy at first glance. Usually this is due to a split penis - the urethra's on the underside, sometimes forming a channel along the length - or puffy labia that could look like testes. These can be fixed with surgery, or just left as they are. The others probably look normal at birth, but turn out to have a chromosomal disorder that leads to reproductive anomalies when puberty should occur. And some have abnormalities like two working penises or vaginas, or none.

All are either male or female.

Until fairly recently, visible DSDs were surgically treated shortly after birth. Some were incorrectly 'rectified' depending on whether the surgeon thought they looked more like a girl or a boy. It didn't happen that often but, of course, it was shocking for a young person to learn their genitals had been butchered at birth and they'd been raised as the wrong sex. Now we have chromosomal testing for cases of doubt, and surgery's undertaken only after careful consideration.

Bizarrely, transgenderists use these conditions as some sort of argument in their favour. It makes even less sense than the rest of their nonsense, so I can only suppose it works for them by baffling the general public. The weirdest thing about it is that they claim to be outraged by the inappropriate surgeries (which have almost died out). Yet a huge part of their own ambition is to have children's genitals medically altered or excised, and the kids raised as the opposite sex. Go figure

Remember when Lia Thomas time was shattered by multiple cis swimmers? I do. Because she has not magical advantage.

no @ElonsMusky he doesn’t have a “magical advantage “. He has the advantage of being male. He’s a bloke who couldn’t cut it competing with his fellow men so decided to cheat.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

"Additionally, Thomas’ difference from her personal best with the Penn men’s program was just 6%, as opposed to the typical 10% to 11% difference generally seen between men and women."

"During the last season Thomas competed as a member of the Penn men’s team, which was 2018-19, she ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. As her career at Penn wrapped, she moved to fifth, first and eighth in those respective events on the women’s deck."

Oh good your Google does work.
So you'll have no problem googling the science that says Lia is a woman and not just a shit man competing against exceptional women.

Your data appears to show that Lia started to lose some races, possibly once the media showed some interest. It shows that some women are able to beat the times. As a mediocre male some women who are exceptional should be able to beat the times, that does not prove men are women. The next person who decides they are 'trans' might be a man who was actually good though. How'd their times compare. Every single study on 'trans' women that isn't self selecting shows that men retain a significant advantage over women. Just because that male was shit to begin with doesn't make it right. Women's sport is not an option for mediocre males with APG or gender dysphoria.

Then again perhaps Liars full intact penis was weighing Lia down.
Maybe that's why it got aired in the changing room so much, as Lia may believe a wet willy is a disadvantage over a dry one.
You know cause.of the 'science'.

@GarlicGrace if I could hug you in person I would! You said exactly what I think and a million times better.🤗

Athletic teenage boys beat women's Olympic Records -

www.boysvswomen.com

Women's sports are not a retirement option for mediocre male athletes who wouldn't even place against fellow males.