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Feminism: chat

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Women's rights general conversations - Thread 4

984 replies

Kucinghitam · 09/03/2023 09:19

Continuation of Thread 3.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

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Winterborne74 · 08/05/2023 19:18

That’s a tough read @Waitwhat23 . Strong tribute to KIS.

Thinking about Marelle Sturrock today.

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Britinme · 09/05/2023 12:57

A hopeful sign when the stand-up comedians latch on - a quote from a comedy club in TX. “And if we can be funny with some shit that you do not think should be funny, then that’s wonderful, then let’s explore this. Let’s find out, what is that? Like, what’s going on there? What’s up with that subject that everybody’s scared of it? Are we in a fucking cult? You know, when you start believing things that you inherently know are not true but you say them and repeat them because the cult wants you to do it—this is something you can exploit in stand-up comedy, and that’s what stand-up comedy is all about. It’s all about that.”

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/05/2023 13:23

On the topic of "say them and repeat them because the cult wants you to do it", our women's network - at the insistence of the EDI team - has to have an inclusion statement The network is open to all staff - including men (yes, I know <sigh>) - but apparently saying 'everyone' is insufficiently inclusive.

However, I've managed to get it changed from 'women, including those who identify as women', to 'women, including those who identify as trans' . And I dont think anyone has noticed the difference!

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duc748 · 09/05/2023 13:33

Tricyrtis2022 · 08/05/2023 14:16

Just taken the plunge and have posted that link on my FB page, saying I agree with what's been said. It'll be interesting to see if anyone responds.

Heh! I did the same yesterday. But only about five people read my FB posts. So far, zero response!

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weaseleyes · 09/05/2023 13:43

So @BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn the group can now include trans men but not trans women? I wonder how long it will take people to notice!

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/05/2023 13:51

Yep. Quite a few issues mentioned for the network to cover are health things, so biology matters.

Of course everybody may have noticed and agreed, but it certainly attracted no comment - which is surprising for a change of that magnitude.

And I'm making sure there is the option for individual events to be limited to narrower groups 'directly affected by X'.

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weaseleyes · 09/05/2023 14:09

That's a result.

I had a depressing conversation with a friend last week when we were talking about the difficulties of local elections and who to vote for. In spite of our general agreement on most things, I mentioned I felt I could no longer vote for the green party because of their stance on sex-based rights. Her reply was a/ if we disagree on this we shouldn't really talk about it b/ it's all a right wing conspiracy and they're weaponising the debate c/ opposing groups are all funded by the right wing d/ her daughters have lovely friends who are they/their and wear unusual clothes - perhaps I don't know enough trans people? e/ any problems I cited were usually just student pranks.

It really brought home how isolating this all is.

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/05/2023 14:19

Student pranks?!

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weaseleyes · 09/05/2023 14:43

Yes, I cited a friend of mine in a university where they'd had to disband a support group for women who'd been sexually abused as a trans woman insisted on attending and women no longer felt happy to share in the different environment. I was trying to give an example of how there can be a serious local impact rather than it being an abstract, out there issue dreamed up by the right to sow dissent. Not serious enough, apparently

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StephanieSuperpowers · 09/05/2023 15:15

I'm astonished that a woman could describe that as a prank. Astonished. What has happened to women?

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Kucinghitam · 09/05/2023 15:23

StephanieSuperpowers · 09/05/2023 15:15

I'm astonished that a woman could describe that as a prank. Astonished. What has happened to women?

Being on The Right Side of History, cleaving unthinkingly to the Good People Bundle, HashtagBeKind?

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duc748 · 09/05/2023 15:47

It's like this

Her reply was a/ if we disagree on this we shouldn't really talk about it b/ it's all a right wing conspiracy and they're weaponising the debate c/ opposing groups are all funded by the right wing d/ her daughters have lovely friends who are they/their and wear unusual clothes - perhaps I don't know enough trans people? e/ any problems I cited were usually just student pranks.

is a template. Heard/seen that so many times.

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StephanieSuperpowers · 09/05/2023 16:18

Kucinghitam · 09/05/2023 15:23

Being on The Right Side of History, cleaving unthinkingly to the Good People Bundle, HashtagBeKind?

Show quote history

Yeah but when it comes to the point where you're excusing a male getting a rape crisis support group shut down as a prank just to avoid dealing with the reality, I mean, how can you see yourself as a good, kind or empathetic person?

I know it wasn't you, btw, I'm just infurious (infuriated+curious, I'm trying to make it happen).

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Britinme · 09/05/2023 16:19

Her reply was a/ if we disagree on this we shouldn't really talk about it b/ it's all a right wing conspiracy and they're weaponising the debate c/ opposing groups are all funded by the right wing d/ her daughters have lovely friends who are they/their and wear unusual clothes - perhaps I don't know enough trans people? e/ any problems I cited were usually just student pranks.

That's exactly what I hear from the friend who refuses to discuss this issue with me.

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weaseleyes · 09/05/2023 16:26

I find it so baffling because my friend genuinely is a lovely, good and empathic person. We didn't fall out, but her tone in talking to me was kind of - I don't really want to talk about it, but if you insist - then a sort of weary pity, like she was really sorry to have to explain this to me. It was faintly condescending, like I was her grandmother who a bit racist in private. I was also struck by the fact that we weren't debating an issue like we would any other topic where we had different views. She was just disappointed in me being self-evidently wrong. I'd be saying things like 'I can see where you're coming from on a and b, but on c and d...' - the kind of things you say to debate but keep civility and bridges in the process, whereas she did none of that.

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Tricyrtis2022 · 09/05/2023 16:32

That's exactly the response I'm expecting if the subject comes up with a very woke friend of mine. I'm dreading it.

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Tricyrtis2022 · 09/05/2023 16:33

@duc748, one response so far, from someone who very occasionally posts here, who was a member at the other place, and she was agreeing with what was said.

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Kucinghitam · 09/05/2023 17:02

StephanieSuperpowers · 09/05/2023 16:18

Yeah but when it comes to the point where you're excusing a male getting a rape crisis support group shut down as a prank just to avoid dealing with the reality, I mean, how can you see yourself as a good, kind or empathetic person?

I know it wasn't you, btw, I'm just infurious (infuriated+curious, I'm trying to make it happen).

Show quote history

I don't get it either, of course, but I think it is could be about people constructing their own reality (cf. the coronation threads) including their own "truth" that they are a "good, kind or empathetic person" and therefore anything that they support must be Good. Which leads back to the Bundle of Good Beliefs for self-identified Good People. Circular, like everything else about this ideology.

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Gonners · 09/05/2023 19:31

File on 4 has just trailed tonight's episode which is entitled "Sex education: Too much too young?"

"The government has brought forward a review into how sex education is taught in schools in England following concerns that children across the country are being taught lessons on oral sex, how to choke your partner safely and 72 genders as part of their RSE."

If you're interested, it'll be available online here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001lqnk

BBC Radio 4 - File on 4, Sex education: Too much too young?

What is being taught in our schools about sex?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001lqnk

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Woman2023 · 09/05/2023 23:07

She was just disappointed in me being self-evidently wrong.

I think this is where we need to gently ask them to explain what we're getting wrong. She almost certainly won't be able to give reasoned answers so i wouldn't push too hard if you want to keep things friendly. But you wil be planting seeds of doubt.

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SinnerBoy · 10/05/2023 01:11

I read the SUFW response, it was accurate and concise, covered everything in a reasonable fashion. I don't expect that it will get much publicity, more's the pity.

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NotDrowningJustCrowing · 10/05/2023 03:40

@weaseleyes , I feel a bit sorry for her because she's drunk the Kool-Aid so now, when it comes to this topic, she's been robbed of critical thinking. I agree with her that there is a lot of right wing support on TWSOH, but most of them are unaware of the right wing money and support on TRSOH. I just hope for her, and the many women like her that they're not ever in a position where they have to face how wrong they are because they need a refuge or a crisis centre or ... and are stuck in a group of men who think they do woman better than actual women and whose male privilege demands that it's all about them.

I think it's easy to hold the be kind position when you're life is pretty middle class and comfortable and most of the women who've drunk the Kool-Aid have that life.

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NotDrowningJustCrowing · 10/05/2023 03:46

I read an article on Unherd titled (if I recall correctly) Animals Trapped In Human Bodies. There is a name for them, therians. It was an interesting article and I enjoyed the difference between them and the more radical trans activists. Some therians are also trans and unsurprisingly the trans movement are not keen on therians. At all. Sorry that I don't have the link on my phone but it's a very recent article and worth a read.

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