Women's rights general conversations - Thread 4

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 3.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

In my opinion, saying that people desperate enough to drown in the channel aren't desperate, is horrific

I totally agree.

Yeah, seems pretty VILE to me.

I think her comments in context are perfectly fine and I broadly agree with her. I'm willing to accept that my understanding of the situation could be wrong, but simply saying it's a vile opinion does nothing to convince me that I'm wrong OR that you have any coherent argument.

I also think if you want to name call, moralising, and shut down discussion you are part of the problem. The problem being the silencing of women/others whose views you don't like. You think it would be a wonderful world if everyone shared your ideology, but in reality it would be hell. Let women speak!

As an immigrant myself in the USA I hope I can't be accused of anti-immigration. But on the point of logic that JHB made, why is France such a terrible place that people need to risk their lives to get away from it?

I’ve always had a problem with people being described as vile or horrific based on one thing they’ve said, or the fact that they are politically on the wrong side, or something similar. The same behaviour can be seen on ANY article about comedians, where the comments underneath are invariable full of people saying “xxx is just not funny” etc. Clearly not true - and it would be a lot better if people said instead “I don’t find xxx funny”.

However, I am perfectly fine with labelling some views vile or abhorrent - you’re labelling the view and not the person, how is that a problem? I think most of us should be perfectly capable of differentiating between the view and the person, and labelling someone’s view on a specific subject as vile does NOT mean that you think that person is vile, and is certainly not misogynistic. In my opinion.

I understand JHB to be saying they're already in a safe country, which is also how I see it. Why risk your kids' lives when you're already in a place of refuge? I assume people traffickers sell them on the dangers/hopes so I'm not going to say they don't feel desperate, because I can imagine they do. But they are taking a terrible, and as far as I can tell, unnecessary risk.

I think it's dehumanising to say that someone's views are vile, abhorrent etc as it implies they are beyond what normal, decent people would say. Only a vile person thinks vile things, after all. Do you accept that your opinion that men aren't women is vile, disgusting, abhorrent, repulsive etc? No? So why should others accept that characterisation of their opinions? You know its a way of trying to silence you. And when you do it to other people, it's a way of trying to silence them.

It's also usually (as in this case) an extreme exaggeration. You can dislike and disagree with JHB's opinion but it's based on logic and is shared by many, so you actually need to make a proper case against it. You weaken your critical thinking skills if you simply rely on name calling and silencing, or hope that people are just going to be shamed into nodding along.

If we throw these accusations at actually reasonable opinions then what have we got left when we confronted actually vile opinions? If KJK and JHB are fascists, what do we call actual fascists?

On the one hand (immigrant, BTW) I agree to a broad sense of puzzlement about why the small boats migrants would leave France under such dangerous circumstances. On the other hand, it seems self-evident to me that their veryactions in risking theirs and their children's lives ipso facto demonstrates the sheer desperation. What is causing the desperation I cannot say - perhaps it could even be threats/force from the people-traffickers? But I absolutely believe that their actions show they are desperate.

Only a vile person thinks vile things, after all.

I disagree. That's looking for purity.

People think all mixtures of things. I have no doubt that some people genuinely are full of more unpleasant views, or have more ghastly personalities.

But I would hope that nobody grown-up thinks that people who don't completely agree with them are Disney villains.

Personally I fully accept that some people find my views that people cannot change sex vile. It’s when they say I am a vile person for having that view that I would be pretty unhappy. I don’t know enough of JHB’s views to have an opinion right now (not very familiar with her work) - and this probably isn’t the thread to discuss migrants crossing the channel (probably there are dedicated threads for that?). I stand by my statement though - I personally find holocaust denial to be a vile view, likewise racism, homophobia etc, but again that’s the view and not the person.

Re: labelling vile people, I might make an exception for the Brave&Stunning young male human who head butted, then repeatedly punched, the 70-year-old woman in NZ.

Personally I fully accept that some people find my views that people cannot change sex vile. It’s when they say I am a vile person for having that view that I would be pretty unhappy.

I'm quite certain that many on TRSOH have indeed labelled us VILE creatures. Which just confirms to me that they need to grow the fuck up.

Okay. Let me amend my view then. If you want to use that kind of language to describe someone's views, as opposed to their person, then I accept that is reasonable.

However, I think in most discourse, the two things are conflated, I.e. the idea is that JHB is vile because she says vile things. No one is making a distinction.

And I think this language is used to shame and silence women. As we have seen in this thread, many comments have said JHB's view is vile, and only one has actually qualified that statement with an argument. I believe that it makes a huge difference to say, I find this a vile opinion because... and set out your reasoning.

Otherwise I'm afraid it does come over as attempts to shame and silence.

Of course I can't tell anyone how to conduct themselves. I'm merely trying to set out logical reasons why it's better to construct coherent arguments than to rely on emotive characterisations.

Then I fully agree with your amended view Beastly 😁

Yes. I'm happy to condemn people's actions as vile and abhorrent, if they are.

Thanks 😊 I appreciate you saying so!

There's a male GC poster on the Lesbian video thread (oh god, that sounds so wrong ) wondering how many other male GC posters are on MN. I wondered about confessing that we brought several of you nice chaps over from the Great Departure...

I only know of two men over here. That's probably a good sign if i can't tell you're a man!

I just typed out a big long post and now see that we are agreed that we are allowed to view people's actions as vile and abhorrent. TF for that. I'm in a really bad mood and would probably have made an arsehole of myself by arguing the toss.

Consultation on the recording of non-crime hate incidents: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4773979-the-college-of-policing

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · Today 08:55

That's what I was thinking of, among other things. I've seen her on panel shows and she's very contemptuous about poor people, as well.

I'm entirely happy to slag off men, too. Blair and his lies told to invade Iraq.

Johnson, where to start? Lying, homophobic hypocrite, with his lockdown parties. The way he's treated his various wives, a serial cheat. Trying to give his woman beating father a seat in the HoL.

Cameron, the despicable millionaire, who claimed every penny available in benefits for his disabled son, then cut them off for everyone else.

Thanks, have done this.

https://twitter.com/buitengebieden/status/1641192094445232131?s=19

I am shameless and using this thread as a dumping ground for this. As it's just to cute to lose in the mass of other tweets.

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn that link isn't working, for me at least.

The entire concept of the non-crime hate incident really boils my piss. It just diminishes the idea of hate in such a childish, pathetic way. Hate is serious. Hate is not tying fucking ribbons to a fence or putting stickers on mirrors. If t'other side have successfully defined transphobia as "anything I disagree with related to gender ideology", then at least let's not let them have hate. I don't hate people, I just want them to leave me and other women alone.

Wheeeeeeeee! 🏄