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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kate Forbes reported for 'transphobia'

291 replies

ArabellaScott · 21/02/2023 16:01

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23336504.kate-forbes-may-breached-snp-rules-transphobia/

'KATE Forbes looks set to be probed by the SNP's conduct committee after members of the party's LGBTQ+ wing accused her of breaking rules on transphobia.

In an interview with ITV Border, when asked if she believed a trans woman is a woman, the Finance Secretary replied: "I believe that a trans woman is a biological male who identifies as a woman."'

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Sugarfree23 · 22/02/2023 11:17

Thanks for that @Goldpaw

The reason Yousaf won't be asked to face the questions that Forbes was asked isn't because he's a man but because he's an 'ethnic minority' and the usual fears that he'll pull the race card.

hryllilegur · 22/02/2023 11:22

Sugarfree23 · 22/02/2023 11:17

Thanks for that @Goldpaw

The reason Yousaf won't be asked to face the questions that Forbes was asked isn't because he's a man but because he's an 'ethnic minority' and the usual fears that he'll pull the race card.

Let’s face it ‘being tolerant’ and ‘kind’ doesn’t apply to the parts of home-grown Scottish culture that ‘progressive’ types are embarrassed by.

Wee Frees are like a dirty secret. And it seems to be socially acceptable to be intolerant of them.

Aphrathestorm · 22/02/2023 11:23

Suzanne was the woman who kicked all the GC women out of women for independence.

Sugarfree23 · 22/02/2023 11:31

@hryllilegur that too.
Could you imagine it being public accepted to call any other church or religious sect, the "wee anything" like the "wee Islamics" honestly you just wouldn't.

hryllilegur · 22/02/2023 11:35

Sugarfree23 · 22/02/2023 11:31

@hryllilegur that too.
Could you imagine it being public accepted to call any other church or religious sect, the "wee anything" like the "wee Islamics" honestly you just wouldn't.

Good point.

I mean, my personal views (and life!) are not compatible with that particular brand of Christianity. But that doesn’t mean i don’t recognise that some Scottish people do share (aspects or all) of the ‘wee free’ worldview. Or that I don’t think their opinions should be represented - fairly and not judgementally - in parliament.

It always amazed me how being ‘progressive’ is about insisting on tolerance of everything except conservative views.

PronounssheRa · 22/02/2023 11:40

It’s interesting that people who seemed to have no problem with Forbes’ religion a week ago now think it’s awful.

They didn't care about it when Ian Blackford was the leader of the SNP in the House of Commons either. He is a member of the same church as Kate.

hryllilegur · 22/02/2023 11:45

PronounssheRa · 22/02/2023 11:40

It’s interesting that people who seemed to have no problem with Forbes’ religion a week ago now think it’s awful.

They didn't care about it when Ian Blackford was the leader of the SNP in the House of Commons either. He is a member of the same church as Kate.

Well. He’s a man. 🙄

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 22/02/2023 11:55

"Wee" in this case was originally descriptive, not pejorative. The Free Church now has more members than the United Free Church, but clearly the name has persisted. From wiki:

The term Wee Free was an epithet commonly used to distinguish two Scottish Presbyterian Churches after the union of 1900: The Free Kirk and The United Free Kirk. Since the United Free were approximately 25 times larger, but hard to distinguish without some knowledge of Scottish history and theology, the rhyming Scottish diminutive became used as an epithet of the post 1900 Free Kirk

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 22/02/2023 11:57

Oh. I thought I'd quoted the post at 11:31 by @Sugarfree23@Sugarfree23

CharlieParley · 22/02/2023 11:57

I think there's a useful discussion to be had on the influence of one's faith on one's public duty. I think people should be able to believe what they like in private but if politicians start making public comments based on those beliefs then they should expect that voters would want to ask questions on how those views would impact policy if they were in a leadership position in the party.

I certainly agree with that. The problem is that Kate Forres has been asked about her private beliefs, has honestly answered those questions accordingly and then highlighted the fact that she would not seek to change the law in those areas. So she has made clear that her private views would not impact policy.

And certainly those who know her and have worked with her as a politician pointed out even before she launched her bid that she had not allowed her private beliefs to interfere with or impact policy.

She was fully vetted and promoted to Minister in the full knowledge of her private views. The very same people who now seek to crucify her publicly for her views, calling her entirely unacceptable and calling on her to stand down as an MSP, had nothing to say publicly about her views earlier.

I see this for what it is - a concerted campaign to destroy the candidate who threatens the outgoing leader's chosen successor.

Grammarnut · 22/02/2023 12:05

Igneococcus · 22/02/2023 07:29

Would you say this about a person of any other religion who holds the same views?
I think Apollo is being sarcastic.

Thought about this. I think you are right.

Transparent2 · 22/02/2023 12:11

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 21/02/2023 19:53

It forcing the term man and woman to be about genotype when society increasingly sees them as a phenotype

I guarantee you they are seen for exactly what they are. You cannot hide your
Gait
Shoulder width
Large face
Large hands
Large feet
Etc etc

You can call phenotype all you want, but we can see.
No one is forcing genotype, it just is. Cannot change facts.

Large hands = male? So Trump is actually a woman! I knew it!

CharlieParley · 22/02/2023 12:11

I meant Kate Forbes obviously. Just why my autocorrect changes Forbes to Forres is a mystery to me.

Teribus21 · 22/02/2023 12:32

A truly astonishing piece from the Indian Council for Scotland and the UK and the Muslim Council of the UK saying what a disaster Humza Yousaf would be for Scotland due to his incompetence and dishonesty and calling for him to be asked the same questions as Kate Forbes.
yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2023/02/22/faiths-united-by-humza-yousaf/

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 22/02/2023 12:35

KF being discussed on R2 Jeremy Vine just now.

CharlieParley · 22/02/2023 13:45

Very sloppy reply for a politician she should have either declined to answer or answer it properly.

She did answer it properly. A clear unequivocal answer that reflected material reality and respected the right of an individual to identify however they wish without committing everyone else to accept that identification.

As it's stands her answer is transphobic by the code she signed up to represent.

She didn't sign up to that code. It was foisted upon the SNP membership by its National Executive Council on 22 February 2021. Kate became an MSP in 2016.

Now the NEC is another object lesson in SNP failure. There's been much criticism of its handling of important issues (complaints, party democracy, policy, finance) and various critics believe it is controlled by the First Minister and the party's CEO in ways that it shouldn't. When the membership attempted to rectify the issue, and elected new NEC members, to restore party democracy and deal with the several years long complaints backlog, these democratically elected members were sidelined by unelected members put in place by the party leadership.

There was no debate about the code. The party membership had no say. The NEC foisted this code and this definition upon the membership, and none of them were ever asked to sign up to it. Furthermore, after the Forstater ruling it is extremely unlikely that this code would survive a legal challenge (IOW, it is probably unlawful because it rides roughshod over the protected characteristic of belief).

It should have been phrased to acknowledge gender identity even if she wanted to rock the boat and add biology to the end of it.

Why? Gender identity ideology is - at most - supported by a third of SNP voters and unlikely to be any more popular amongst the membership. And why should she lie?

Something like I do believe a trans woman is a woman as an individual has the right to identify as whichever or non gender they wish, this principle is the corner stone of gender identity.

You're confusing two things with that phrasing. An individual does indeed have the right to identify as they wish, but that does not make the individual whatever they identify as if it conflicts with material reality. Nothing can do that. That's the eternal conflict between desire and reality. To make desire reality is difficult, often impossible, but never more so when we desire reality to change when that cannot be done. Human beings are not clown fish. We cannot change sex.

And you are misunderstanding or ignorant of freedom of belief, a cornerstone of human rights and equality legislation. No one is obliged to espouse a belief they do not share. You can try to force people to do it, it's certainly happening on this issue, but I would never recommend that over an individual's right to espouse their own beliefs. That is illiberal and intolerant.

This shouldn't be confused with biological genotype which is usually assigned at birth and can be different to someone gender identity

Oh dear. Sex is determined at conception and observed either in utero or at birth. No one hands out sex assignments like sweets at a birthday party. And your genotype is the entirety of the genes in your body, not just those relating to sex chromosomes, so it doesn't even make sense for you to use this expression.

Imnobody4 · 22/02/2023 16:39

Essential viewing: Equalities Minister @KemiBadenoch on the treatment of SNP hopeful Kate Forbes, speaking to me at a Politico UK event last night.

Badenoch supports gay marriage, but praises Forbes' honesty and fiercely defends her right to free expression.

Watch the clip

twitter.com/Jack_Blanchard_/status/1628307269698961409?t=QCee6zacys7k7JmszM2srA&s=19

I am in awe of Kemi - such clarity and dignity.

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 16:51

That's fucking brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

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Waitwhat23 · 22/02/2023 17:47

The Free Church of Scotland ('wee frees') have issued a statement -

freechurch.org/free-church-of-scotland-responds-to-media-enquiries/

Waitwhat23 · 22/02/2023 17:52

And as a disclaimer, I am an atheist and do not share Kate's beliefs in respect to same sex marriage/no sex outside of marriage etc. However, she is entitled to hold those beliefs. And it's been quite shocking to see members of her party disavow her for holding beliefs they knew she held - it's hardly been a secret. And seemingly wasn't an issue when she was elected as an MSP or when she was made a Cabinet Secretary. Only now.

Funny that.

PronounssheRa · 22/02/2023 17:55

Imnobody4 · 22/02/2023 16:39

Essential viewing: Equalities Minister @KemiBadenoch on the treatment of SNP hopeful Kate Forbes, speaking to me at a Politico UK event last night.

Badenoch supports gay marriage, but praises Forbes' honesty and fiercely defends her right to free expression.

Watch the clip

twitter.com/Jack_Blanchard_/status/1628307269698961409?t=QCee6zacys7k7JmszM2srA&s=19

I am in awe of Kemi - such clarity and dignity.

Kemi is very impressive 👏

She knows her brief, understands the EA and speaks with such clarity.

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 18:07

Waitwhat23 · 22/02/2023 17:52

And as a disclaimer, I am an atheist and do not share Kate's beliefs in respect to same sex marriage/no sex outside of marriage etc. However, she is entitled to hold those beliefs. And it's been quite shocking to see members of her party disavow her for holding beliefs they knew she held - it's hardly been a secret. And seemingly wasn't an issue when she was elected as an MSP or when she was made a Cabinet Secretary. Only now.

Funny that.

100%

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Goldpaw · 22/02/2023 18:13

I loved Kemi bringing up the people who initially supported her, but have withdrawn now she's displayed integrity about her beliefs.

They just go whatever way they think the wind blows. No principles at all.

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 22/02/2023 18:17

That Kemi clip is very classy.
I proper love her.
Can’t believe I’m fangirling for a Tory MP.

A few short years ago I was an elected officer for my local Momentum branch, as well as holding branch and CLP posts for Labour.

We’re definitely in The Upside Down.

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 18:18

I'm finding it quite funny that a Tory MP and a christian who doesn't believe in sex outwith marriage or abortion are more appealing to this unmarried agnostic bisexual leftwinger than most of the people I'd be likely to 'align' with politically.

I just want people to be honest and discuss things respectfully, that's all. Tolerance for diversity of opinion should be a hallmark of a healthy democracy.

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