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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kate Forbes reported for 'transphobia'

291 replies

ArabellaScott · 21/02/2023 16:01

www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23336504.kate-forbes-may-breached-snp-rules-transphobia/

'KATE Forbes looks set to be probed by the SNP's conduct committee after members of the party's LGBTQ+ wing accused her of breaking rules on transphobia.

In an interview with ITV Border, when asked if she believed a trans woman is a woman, the Finance Secretary replied: "I believe that a trans woman is a biological male who identifies as a woman."'

OP posts:
CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 22/02/2023 18:19

Absolutely agree @ArabellaScott.

MarshaBradyo · 22/02/2023 18:21

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 18:18

I'm finding it quite funny that a Tory MP and a christian who doesn't believe in sex outwith marriage or abortion are more appealing to this unmarried agnostic bisexual leftwinger than most of the people I'd be likely to 'align' with politically.

I just want people to be honest and discuss things respectfully, that's all. Tolerance for diversity of opinion should be a hallmark of a healthy democracy.

I think it’s tough as in a way a typical voter who used to be the left might have liberal views and find the authoritarian stance of the left today very difficult.

It’s how I feel and part of the reason Labour has lost my vote.

I listened to Blair and W Hague this morning on radio. Granted they are not in the heat of politics today but it was a good listen on important stuff.

I prefer the freer thinking of Cons today but that has been a shift of the left imo

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 22/02/2023 18:23

I agree @ArabellaScott .

Igneococcus · 22/02/2023 18:35

"She would make mistakes and would doubtless do many things I might think unwise but she is someone with whom it is possible to have a good faith disagreement and in modern Scottish politics that makes her depressingly unusual."

That's what Alex Massie said about Kate Forbes a few days ago in the Times. I trust AM's judgement.

WickedSerious · 22/02/2023 18:36

This reply has been deleted

This post has been withdrawn at the poster's request due to privacy concerns.

Facts aren't very popular theses days,especially biological ones.

highame · 22/02/2023 18:43

Has anyone pointed out what the definition of transphobia is yet and if they have, has it been acknowledge by all countries, is there a UN declaration? Has anyone been imprisoned for this crime

BishopRock · 22/02/2023 19:07

Slight aside, but I came across this interview with Kemi and I found myself liking what she says!

LBC Interview

DameMaud · 22/02/2023 19:13

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 18:18

I'm finding it quite funny that a Tory MP and a christian who doesn't believe in sex outwith marriage or abortion are more appealing to this unmarried agnostic bisexual leftwinger than most of the people I'd be likely to 'align' with politically.

I just want people to be honest and discuss things respectfully, that's all. Tolerance for diversity of opinion should be a hallmark of a healthy democracy.

Same for me. I think it's because trust and security is the foundational need we all have, and trust is built from sensing someone's clarity and integrity rather than simply sharing the same worldview.

In this highly unstable moment, I think we are feeling that basic need for trust again; to feel solid ground.

Kemi, and others we might find ourselves admiring outside of our political affiliation, seem to offer clarity and a sense of standing for the larger principles of democracy/reason/freedom of belief etc that transcend left/right political standpoints. These are the foundational things that we need to feel are still in place.

As a slight tangent example- one of the realisations that has rocked me the most in all of this, is the shift in organisations such as Amnesty and the ACLU- whose very reason for being, and value, was in standing outside of/beyond politics- in impartiality- so as to protect freedom of conscience and expression as fundamental. For these institutions to now show politically partiality I find shocking and destabilising.

With a stable foundation, there can be room for healthy progress and change- but the centre needs to hold.
(Someone posted an amazing poem along these lines on a thread recently and I can't find it!)

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking how we are in dangerous times for these reasons. As history has shown; in times of instability, societies needing to feel basic trust and security again are drawn to leaders (or potential leaders) who offer that solid ground by being clear and straightforward/principled. If a society isn't lucky enough to have a leader available whose clarity and principles are based in democratic integrity- not sure that's the right phrase- (Mandela for example? ), then they are vulnerable to someone quite different.

I'm not sure I've explained what I mean here clearly. I'm not a sociologist/politicist, but just musing from a more psychological lens.

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 19:23

Yeats, surely? 'things all apart, the centre cannot hold'

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 19:23

www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming

The Second Coming
By William Butler Yeats

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out

When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,

A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,

Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it

Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 19:24

Sorry, the formatting's all fucked.

OP posts:
Sugarfree23 · 22/02/2023 19:26

@DameMaud I know exactly what you are saying. And yes being able to trust is a huge thing.
So many MPs MSPs are all there for themselves we need someone we can trust.

Signalbox · 22/02/2023 19:26

highame · 22/02/2023 18:43

Has anyone pointed out what the definition of transphobia is yet and if they have, has it been acknowledge by all countries, is there a UN declaration? Has anyone been imprisoned for this crime

Everyone and everything is transphobic. No definition required.

DameMaud · 22/02/2023 19:31

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 19:23

www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming

The Second Coming
By William Butler Yeats

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out

When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,

A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,

Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it

Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Yes! Thank you!

bloodyfootprint · 22/02/2023 19:41

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 22/02/2023 07:08

“Assigned at birth” is a very sloppy, as you put it, expression.

Assigned by whom? The fates?

By the chromosomes.

Reallybadidea · 22/02/2023 19:48

If a trans woman is a woman can someone born a woman be a trans woman? And if not, why not?

ResisterRex · 22/02/2023 20:08

Great post @DameMaud

BluebellBlueballs · 22/02/2023 20:14

Reallybadidea · 22/02/2023 19:48

If a trans woman is a woman can someone born a woman be a trans woman? And if not, why not?

That sounds like a zen koan but it makes the best point. Of course we know the difference between men and women as only men seem to be able to identify as TW.

I'd like to 'outwoke the woke' by as a bio woman, identify as a TW just for the headscratch factor.

Reallybadidea · 22/02/2023 20:28

I'm starting to think we should just play them at their own game and identify as trans women and/or declare that our preferred pronouns are he/him. Because how can anyone say we aren't trans women or question our pronouns without revealing the flawed logic in all its glory?

StalkedByASpider · 23/02/2023 01:26

DameMaud · 22/02/2023 19:13

Same for me. I think it's because trust and security is the foundational need we all have, and trust is built from sensing someone's clarity and integrity rather than simply sharing the same worldview.

In this highly unstable moment, I think we are feeling that basic need for trust again; to feel solid ground.

Kemi, and others we might find ourselves admiring outside of our political affiliation, seem to offer clarity and a sense of standing for the larger principles of democracy/reason/freedom of belief etc that transcend left/right political standpoints. These are the foundational things that we need to feel are still in place.

As a slight tangent example- one of the realisations that has rocked me the most in all of this, is the shift in organisations such as Amnesty and the ACLU- whose very reason for being, and value, was in standing outside of/beyond politics- in impartiality- so as to protect freedom of conscience and expression as fundamental. For these institutions to now show politically partiality I find shocking and destabilising.

With a stable foundation, there can be room for healthy progress and change- but the centre needs to hold.
(Someone posted an amazing poem along these lines on a thread recently and I can't find it!)

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking how we are in dangerous times for these reasons. As history has shown; in times of instability, societies needing to feel basic trust and security again are drawn to leaders (or potential leaders) who offer that solid ground by being clear and straightforward/principled. If a society isn't lucky enough to have a leader available whose clarity and principles are based in democratic integrity- not sure that's the right phrase- (Mandela for example? ), then they are vulnerable to someone quite different.

I'm not sure I've explained what I mean here clearly. I'm not a sociologist/politicist, but just musing from a more psychological lens.

@DameMaud - absolutely agree with everything you've written here.

My politics are very firmly left-wing but there has normally been right-wing politicians who I could admire for being principled, and for having integrity, even if I didn't agree with their world view.

And I think the absence of this is what I have mourned so much in recent years, especially through the COVID period when we so desperately needed someone who we could trust to do the right thing, rather than the populalist or self-serving thing.

This is about left vs right, it's about integrity. I thought Rory Stewart was a wonderfully principled man, and his biggest downfall was that he was scrupulously honest and up against Boris, the man who wouldn't know the truth if it bit him on the arse. Boris ushered in Trump-style politics into this country in a way that we've never experienced before. Politicians have often exaggerated but usually those at the top would have some scruples. We're now in a situation where everyone just shrugs when politicians are caught in the most outright and outrageous lies, because that's the point we've reached.

More than anything else I find this utterly, utterly depressing.

Keir Starmer has many faults, and I appreciate he's not everyone's favourite. But I do believe very strongly that he's a decent man with strong ethics. Throughout COVID he didn't attempt to point-score for easy political wins, he did the decent thing and quite often was mocked as being weak as a result. But what he did was the opposite of weak - he was strong enough to recognise when something was more important than gaining points over the opposition.

The only problem now is that he's lost his voice because he's trying to pacify all wings of his party - he's trying to recapture the lost red wall, and he's got a deputy who firmly believes the whole TWAW mantra, so he needs to keep that brigade happy too. I don't believe for a second that he doesn't know what a woman is, but he's too scared of pissing people off to stand up and say that.

And I think that's an enormous shame because I believe that Keir Starmer could almost "re-set" British politics. He is incredibly intelligent, sharp and nothing escapes his notice - he shreds opponents in the Commons, which isn't a surprise given his QC background. But his decency and strong sense of right and wrong - it would be wonderful if politicians saw voters attracted by someone who is honest and genuine. I do think there are decent politicians out there, but they're buried by people who will say whatever gets them to the top, people like Boris, Suella Braverman, and even Rishi Sunak.

Sadly while Keir insists on the whole TWAW thing, he's lost many voters - even though I think he might win without us anyway. But it will be a hollow victory because it will be another electoral win where the candidate said what he thought people wanted to hear, rather than what he truly believed.

Sugarfree23 · 23/02/2023 09:32

If Keir dropped the TWAW he could be another Tony Blair.

The UK needs a change away from Tory, but TWAW has made Labour unelectable.

I actually thought Isla pulling down Nicola and peeking a nation would have a domino effect with labour.

He doesn't need to work that hard to get the votes, vow to keep single sex spaces and job done!

Fakecrazy · 23/02/2023 09:49

Exactly. Sort it out!! It makes him look like a weak thicko.

MissLawls · 23/02/2023 10:48

I'm afraid if Starmer is too frit to stand up to the lobbyists in his own party, to stand up to his own deputy, to defend his own MPs, then that doesn't augur well for him being our prime minister. I don't want a prime minister who is scared of his own shadow. I want one who believes in stuff, stands by it, and most of all stands by his own MPs and defends them against bullying from within his own party! Starmer doesn't do that. I loathe him for that. He is definitely NOT another Tony Blair and he never will be.

PaterPower · 23/02/2023 12:27

He is definitely NOT another Tony Blair and he never will be.

I have no love for Starmer, but are you seriously trying to elevate Tony Blair as an exemplar of someone who’d stand up to bullying?!

The same Tony Blair who employed Alistair Campbell who was, arguably, (and has been called out many times for it) one of the most unpleasant and ‘bullyboy’ of Downing Street ‘fixers’ in living memory?

The same Campbell, let’s not forget, who bullied technical experts into making changes to dossiers (so his boss could take us to war)? Who bullied them so badly, one could argue, that it may well have contributed to a death?

The same Campbell who boasted that he was close to head butting a journalist (and only did not because he was aware his Mum might be watching his interview)?

I think your recollections of the Saintly Blair’s conduct in office may have been made rosier by the passage of time.

MarshaBradyo · 23/02/2023 12:33

He’s no Blair but agree Blair had issues too (dossier a big one)

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