Scotland PIE and LGB research thread

[EndlessTea]

I wanted to research how PIE was eventually exposed as a child abusers lobby group and how it went from being influential and widely endorsed by groups such as Liberty and even feminists such as Harriet Harman, etc, to being reviled, quashed and the word ‘paedo’ becoming synonymous with child abuser.

I started with Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange and my hairs stood on end, when I discovered right away that “PIE was set up as a special interest group within the Scottish Minorities Group” and “in 1969, it was the country's first LGBT rights organisation.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outright_Scotland and both were founded by Ian Dunn. This suggests that historically in Scotland, gay rights activism and child abuser lobbying have been very closely entwined.

The reason for the uncanny feeling, is because, on reading Trans Britain, I was disturbed to discover that James Morton joined a group of activists who had lobbied for amendments to the Sex Offenders Bill 1996 (around the age of consent) and called themselves The LGB Equality Network. This group strongly pushed the T at the expense of safeguarding.

Also, the fact that LGBT Youth Scotland (established in November 1989 as the Stonewall Youth Project by members of the LGBT community in Edinburgh.) has such a culture of child [redacted word which rhymes with looming]
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4703808-comes-with-a-content-warning-reduxx-exclusive-two-survivors-allege-they-were-groomed-sexually-exploited-by-staff-at-scottish-lgbt-youth-charity I get the strong sense that the links aren’t so tenuous, when we ask ourselves “was James Morton just doing the bidding of sex offenders?”.

The Equality Network, according to Wikipedia “was founded back in 1997 as a national organisation working for LGBT rights and equality in Scotland and 2014 for LGBTI rights and equality in Scotland. The Equality Network has superseded the work of Outright Scotland.”

According to John Hein’s obituary for Ian Dunn reproduced in my previous post, written in March 1998 (soon after the formation of the The Equality Network in 1997):

“[Ian Dunn] was a founder member of the Scottish Minorities Group (which became the Scottish Homosexual Rights Group and is now OUTRIGHT Scotland).”

“recently, Ian was thrown out of OUTRIGHT Scotland because he refused to stop speaking on behalf of the organisation without being authorised to do so. He fought back, was readmitted and it was others (myself included) who left. It's interesting to note that some of the people who replaced us didn't last long and were no longer on speaking terms with Ian when he died, whilst many oldtimers, although despising his Cult of the Personality, recognised that our politics were nearer his than the Johnny Come Lately types”

This suggests to me, that the formation of The Equality Network, seems to have been a breakaway group from Outright, the result of its founder and also founder of PIE, Ian Dunn, being too domineering and influential (Outright was the re-named Sexual Minorities Group Dunn founded, of which PIE fell under the umbrella).

This demonstrates that the founder of PIE was highly influential right up until his death, in the group that was to break up and re-form as The Equality Network, which is now funded by the Scottish Government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Network

The Equality Network was registered, four years later, at Companies House in 2001 by Timothy Martin Hopkins.

MY SECOND SET OF IMPRESSIONS SO FAR

• Even though Dunn founded PIE, I think there’s likely validity to general claims that he wasn’t attracted to younger children. However, I believe he didn’t care about the welfare of women and children, or people hurt by abuse, I say this because he allowed his address to be used to facilitate the distribution of child abuse imagery. He was pretty perverted, with his fascination with urine and faeces, yet railed against anyone who judged, disapproved or was disgusted by perversion. I think he had a serious blind spot when it came to harm and probably didn’t get why being a founder of PIE wasn’t a good look - his very visible and present activism, joining political parties and hoping to win seats, shows he had no shame or understanding of how normies think about child abuse and how his history founding PIE would be a deal-breaker.
• I believe John Hein also shared his lack of care for the welfare of women and children and had a blind spot to the harms of abuse, his minimising of the young man’s experience, who was so traumatised by (he alleged) being raped by Dunn when he was 15, that he came to his funeral to check he was really dead, - believed it “was more a case of mixed signals than any mens rea [ciminal intent] on Ian's part”. That’s a bit ‘boys will be boys’ right? I think he also hated anyone who disapproved of or was disgusted by out their sexual expression, even where is bordered criminal. Perhaps this is the legacy of male homosexuality being decriminalised- might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.
• I believe there was a strong culture, with a tone set by huge larger-than-life personalities and egos, men who were activists and writers in the scene. I believe Donaldson, a committed crook, by all accounts, moved in this scene and groomed some into criminality, but I doubt it was to his own level, but it’s likely there was a fair bit of ‘ask no questions/look the other way’ about anything dodgy.
• I believe this culture was extremely male/man dominated and was concerned exclusively with men’s concerns. I looked at a random copy of GayScot heavy and in Garry Otton’s Scottish Media Monior column, amidst all the railing against religious people, he mentions teen pregnancy and the morning after pill, it jumps out - you think- why the hell does he give a monkeys about pregnancy and the morning after pill? The tone, and it’s enemies, is very similar to pink News.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/26140333/heavy-issue-62-scotsgay-magazine

Apologies for typos. I am doing all this on an iPad and it is so frustrating with its insertion and replacement of words, etc, it’s the best I can do.

Have you looked up Duncan Campbell yet, the author of the Donaldson piece?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_(journalist)

If it wasn't for the peado thing I would quite like John Hein, he is an outlaw who genuinely does not care what anyone thinks about him. I can understand that in his lifetime being gay in Scotland is illegal, so he's already an outlaw, so he just goes for it. I laughed out loud at the BT scam, but the Czech stuff is darker. But no one joins a organisation like PIE by mistake and the rape apologist thing is creepy. In conclusion, I would say Dunn purged Hein because he craved respectability and was ashamed (stuff about parents is relevant here) Hein knows this which is why he writes what he does in the obituary because he doesn't like hypocrites. Yet, we're still no closer to seeing if either or both these men are predators.

Although Tim Hopkins didn’t register the Equality Network with Companies House until 2001, he must have been there from its inception, since he won the first Ian Dunn Memorial Prize at Pride Scotia in 1998 as a representative of the Equality Network.

He also seems have been involved in the formation of Pride Scotia, but, it seems that John Hein’s involvement have been now written out by the Equality Network’s account of the history, according to Pride organisers Laura Norris and Duncan Hothersall:

“We’ve said this many times since, but the honest truth is that the small band of people who set up Pride Scotland in 1994 and ran the first march and festival in 1995 only managed it because we were too stupid to realise it was impossible. If any of us had had any significant events experience, or any insight into how the commercial gay scene operated, or any inkling of the sheer amount of goodwill that needed extracted from all manner of public agencies and private organisations in those days to put on a successful Pride event, we’d have just ruled it out.

One of the earliest meetings we had was with Tim Hopkins, now well-known as Director of the Equality Network and the tireless architect of many of the legal advances LGBT people have made in Scotland over the last 20 years, but then, as it happened, one of D’s lecturers in the Department of Computer Science. So he was nabbed after a lecture, invited over for pasta, and quizzed about Lark in the Park (which he had helped organise a couple of years previously) and whether the idea of an actual Pride march and festival in Edinburgh – and then, we were determined even from the start, swapping to Glasgow every other year – was feasible. Yes, he said. And I’ll help. We were on.

It’s been tricky 25 years on to piece together exactly in what order things happened after that. There were certainly long meetings in various front rooms. There was definitely a public meeting in autumn 1994 in the old LGB Centre on Broughton Street – the room was filled with brilliant, motivated people, which blew us away and basically gave us our organising committee. There was a lot of bucket shaking at Fringe venues as a joint fundraiser for Crusaid and Pride. And there was a lot of bucket shaking every Friday and Saturday night in every gay and lesbian bar and venue that would let us in (which wasn’t all of them).”

https://www.equality-network.org/pride-in-scotland-history/

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/tributes-pour-after-founding-member-edinburghs-pride-movement-passed-away-aged-63-3078909

I like the sound of Hein too, I know that aspies are usually truthworthy and truthful, because they can’t handle the mental load of deceit. He seemed like such a grafter too, I have to respect that. Also being very non-judgmental and accepting of people and having a fondness for cats.

In recent years I have really been learning to accept people more in there entirety (I think it was the unequivocal stuff about Michael Jackson being a child abuser coming out - such talent and originality, making brilliant music, I needed to reconcile it), so I am suspending my judgement because Hein sounds very likeable but he still could have been part of something sinister.

I do think his non sexual criminality is sinister, but then he's grown up gay in a homophobic and Presbyterian country. He'd have no chance of getting funding from the Scot Gov, even for cat food.

It’s a horrible fact of life that many sexual predators are likeable.

Being likeable makes a person a more effective predator.

I’ve known several exceptional men that have gotten away with awfulness for years and years because they were very skilled at something cool (musicians, dancers, artists) that gave them great swathes of social cache within their niche communities.
It’s very hard to speak out against these popular men because no one wants to listen. Easier to dismiss their survivors as liars than to accept that the person you admired is a predator.

Getting to middle age has made it much easier to stand up to these types because I just don’t seem to care about being liked in the same way as I did (in hindsight!) 20 years ago.

There was a tweet on SC's twitter blaming Hein for financial mismanagement yet Hein blames Dunn for losing the cafe/centre in Broughton Street.
I'm beginning to think that whatever happened here was about gaining respectability and therefore funding for gay rights. The magic circle did exist and Duncan Campbell tried to deflect it onto Hein and his friends.

Absolutely to @CryptoFascistMadameCholet about predators being likeable which is why this is so difficult. I keep coming back to PIE and they're involvement, which i don't believe was accidental.

I suppose my motivation for staying on this thread (despite saying I'd leave twice) is because I'd like to understand if LGBT + organisations in Scotland are still harbouring peadophiles. I say still because of Rennie. I still don't see provable connections, I see coincidences and circumstantial things.

I keep coming back to PIE and they're involvement, which i don't believe was accidental.

Although PIE was started off as a gay thing (I am so sorry I have read so much and I can’t remember where I saw it now), it’s Headquarters were moved to London and it grew into something primarily for men with an interest in abusing little girls.

The true ‘Magic Circle’ the one involving the QCs John Watt, Robert Henderson and Sir Nicholas Fairbarn, was also a bisexual/heterosexual group.

My feeling is that Dunn’s circle would have overlapped with theirs in terms of ‘sexual minorities’ activism, rather than ‘parties’ where children were abused.

I suppose the question is how far the "activism" went. There may well have been establishment men who's thing was teenage boys. I honestly think it is in everyone's interests for this to be properly explored. The first time I looked this up John Hein was 100% the founder of Pride, recently he's been dropped and Tim and the 2 students are taking the credit.

Yes, there seems to be a rewriting of history.

Coupled with the facts there weren’t proper investigations - abuse in Celtic boys being ‘investigated’ by co-founder of LGBT Youth Scotland’s Martin Henry, even though James Rennie, co-founder led a paedophile ring and raped a baby, which wasn’t properly investigated either.

Also,

How about Rennie’s evidence to the Scottish Government?- Pivotal in enabling gay men to adopt children, a change in law which would have helped him to cut out the hassle of befriending and grooming parents.

I know that my view isn’t a popular one, but Section 28 was also about school children and his evidence was used in the repeal.

The thing I find curious about Tim Hopkins, is that he doesn’t have a Wikipedia page.

Another thing I find curious, is all the dead links - to the Herald, etc in the OP of the other MN PIE thread. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3755189-PIE-again has someone been cleaning up?

Good, if there has been cleaning up, it means someone's touched a nerve.

I want to talk a bit about James Morton.

£he joined LGBT Youth Scotland as 17 year old in 1997, at around the time disagreements were occurring at OUTRIGHT, breaking it apart and forming The Equality Network (Morton says there was overlap with Pride with the Equality Network, but doesn’t mention Hein in Trans Britain).

My impression is that this scene at the time was very male dominated with male attitudes to boundaries, risk, sex, sexuality, setting the tone. Basically ‘anything goes’ and not being up for something or being shocked or disgusted would have made you a wimp and a prude.

Morton said about thinking £he was male “It is so hard to explain because it wasn’t like a delusion – I know I was born female – but in my dreams, I just always had a male body, I was always a boy, and even though I could see when looking in a mirror that I had a female body, I would often forget others weren’t seeing me as male. There would be a weird dynamic because I was unmistakably looking and sounding female at that point.” https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,making-the-change-exclusive-interview-with-scottish-trans-alliance-manager-james-morton_14834.htm

Now I can completely relate to what Morton says about forgetting that others are seeing me as female. I have been told that I have an Elektra complex, that I’m not like a proper woman, etc, etc, because of it, I am always shocked when I realise that I’m not being treated with proper respect because I am female. Because Morton was in a very blokey environment, totally absent of feminism (it seems feminists were bracketed with religious prudes in those circles), it would be far preferable to be perceived as one of the boys.

I find it all a bit fuzzy around Stonewall Youth Scotland turning into LGBT Youth Scotland and where it overlapped with OUTRIGHT/The Equality Network, in terms of personnel. Rennie was involved from that time, even though he didn’t become CEO until 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_Youth_Scotland

Morton was the manager of The Scottish Trans Alliance from its launch as a project of the Equality Network in 2007.
https://www.scottishtrans.org/announcing-new-scottish-trans-manager/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Network

Here’s h’’ account of the formation of The Scottish Transgender Alliance in Trans Britain. (Interesting that Tim Hopkins doesn’t get a mention).

Photos here

Morton was at LGBT Youth Scotland from 1997-2001 when a need arose for a special ‘trans’ support group. Could it have been that in a very sexualised, blokey space, with predators like Rennie as youth workers knocking about, that this was a lesbian exodus calling itself a ‘trans’ one?

Because it is pretty hard to get info on Tim Hopkins, I am putting these links here

https://www.gscene.com/news/scottish-lgbti-campaigner-honoured/

https://www.thepinknews.com/2014/09/19/comment-what-does-the-independence-referendum-result-mean-for-lgbt-scots/

I managed to find some info confirming Tim Hopkins role in OUTRIGHT from a ScotsGay archive:

SCOTSGAY MAGAZINE Issue 1 - December 1994 States under NATIONAL ORGANISATIONS:

"OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND is Scotland's premier lesbian, gay and bisexual rights organisation. It was founded in 1969 as the Scottish Minorities Group, later became the Scottish Homosexual Rights Group and changed its name to OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND in December 1992. OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND owns the Edinburgh Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Centre. Send sae for their new leaflet and membership application form to: The Secretary, OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND, 58a Broughton Street, Edinburgh. EH1 3SA or e-mail [email protected]

OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND has other Focus Groups. The contacts are: LGB Disability Forum - Jim Liddle 0131-669 3205 or Jim Halcrow 0131-661 5398. Diversity (Anti racism group) - Andy Gentle 0131-557 1662. Outright Women - Alison Rowan. International - Mungo Bovey. Law Reform - Tim Hopkins or Hugo Greenhalgh. Police Liaison - Ian Dunn 0131-557 1662. If no telephone number is given, you can write to the person listed c/o 58a Broughton Street, Edinburgh. EH1 3SA. Why not join OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND? Membership is UKP10 waged and UKP5 unwaged. Please make out your cheque/Postal Order to OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND and send to The Membership Secretary, OUTRIGHT SCOTLAND, 58a Broughton Street, EDINBURGH. EH1 3SA."

Hugo Greenhalgh who worked with Tim Hopkins on law reform was one of the young men who was part of the test case to change the age of consent.https://metro.co.uk/2022/06/30/history-is-for-interfering-with-lgbtq-activists-share-their-story-16906410/

Two questions about this 1. Ian Dunn as police liaison? 🤔2. Since Hein said Dunn had form for taking credit for other people’s work, would it be truly accurate to call all these focus groups OUTRIGHT focus groups?