Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

I doubt I ever make even a hundredth of the acknowledgements I should, but your threads are always at the back of my mind and you have changed how I approach this. For the better, I think. I expect it feels like trying to irrigate the Sahara desert, but your words have made some seeds sprout!

I doubt I ever make even a hundredth of the acknowledgements I should, but your threads are always at the back of my mind and you have changed how I approach this
Thank you, but women really need to see the patterns and that they are being taken in in exactly the same way we were.

DameMaud I am frustratingly unable to keep up with a number of fascinating threads at the moment, so I haven’t seen what has happened around Cat.

But I believe that most women, overwhelmingly, feel that same leaning towards empathy and persuasion.

And that is what is so infuriating. It enables men to completely take the piss and make utter mugs of women.

It takes a lot of inner strength and resolve to go against our female socialisation, our instincts, our fears, and have the bottle to be ‘not nice’, firm, say “no”, have boundaries, say “I can see your game sonny Jim and and I’m not having it”.

I believe the sisterly thing to do is to say “well done luv, for not taking any shit”, and the last thing you need is someone weak, with “mug” written across their forehead, trying to reinforce female socialisation and undermine our resolve.

Being ‘flamed’ in a feminist forum for trying to make mugs of your sisters is par for the course isn’t it? At least it was in the old days.

This is an anonymous board that gets a lot of bad faith posters. That affects debate and response. As do intersecting group dynamics, which include political, gendered, emotional, and responsive motivations.

It can be tricky to negotiate.

👏🏻

Actually Tinsel, I think this questions asked and the push back to emotional manipulation can be seen to be that women DO take notice . We are now recognising patterns. And we are calling those patterns out.

I have learned so much from the women on FWR. I may be overzealous at times, but fuck! Emotional manipulation is the key. I am absolutely fine with disagreement and have found some posters who have engaged without emotional manipulation and we have robust discussions and present evidence and we have gone through that evidence and discussed merits. All without once getting into denigration and shame. Once that emotional manipulation is clear.... it cannot be unseen.

Thanks to you and all the amazingly articulate women on FWR.

Bathhy, you seem to think that TW will continue to use the female spaces even when they are told "No" (if there WAS ever a blanket ban, which is never going to happen - that cat's out of the bag and there's no putting it back in I fear).

Good men will stay out of women's spaces.
The bad ones will continue using them.

Any man going in to a female space who knows he is not welcome there and is intimidating/causing fear/anxiety/stress/embarrassment to the women in there, is not a good man.

I don't know what the punishment should be. What do YOU suggest?

Ah, I see that pointing out that only seriously strange people try to socially shame others into pretending things that aren’t true (like that humans can change sex) is a delectable offence

i thought it might be a bit close to the bone

still true though!

@scratchedbymycat firstly, thanks for sticking around and at the risk of you seeming to be bombarded with posts I would like you to read and respond to this from me.

You and NotHavingIt and a couple of other posters have said that the OP came here in good faith and have used words like compromise, understand their position, conciliatory, bring them to our side, we need the moderate TW with us, explain why this is an issue for women they want to listen.

We did explain. They hear but they don't listen.

The OP, the other TW who entered the thread in support of the OP, and Debbie Hayton all know the following - they absolutely know it:

Them accessing women only spaces and services is not wanted or welcomed by women

Them accessing women only spaces negatively impacts on women causing a number of women to self exclude from those spaces and services that are supposed to be for their use and to give them safety, dignity, privacy and comfort

Them accessing women only spaces opens the door to any and all men doing the same as their access is on the basis of their own self-id about themselves and cannot be challenged, even if a woman was brave enough to do so, because that is a most heinous crime - a look or even a woman walking out is considered an absolutely hideous action.

They are aware of all this, they understand it, they hear it often enough and yet they will not change their behaviour, they will carry on as they are doing irrespective of the consequences to women, they don't care, they put themselves first, they are not on our side they are on their side and only their side.

This is not in any way, shape or form good faith is it? They have already decided they will not alter their behaviour. This is them exerting their power, control and domination over women and they firmly believe they have a right to do so - see the blunt statement by the other TW on this thread.

They could, if they wanted to, have done a hell of a lot to change this, knowing what they know - lobbied for alternative provision due to the detrimental impact on women, banded together and stated en masse that they will always be using the facilities for their sex (the men's) and if other men don't like it tough, get over it. But they don't, they don't want to.

Now, please tell me exactly how using different language or anything else is going to change their mindset? They've had the reasons why women don't want to or cannot share spaces with them, they are aware of the impact their presence has and yet they to a TW - the OP, the other TW on the thread, Debbie Hayton, all say they will still use women's spaces and services, every one of them and these are the 'moderate' TW who we are to have on our side? Cajoling, sympathy and appeals made to their better nature has been done and rejected and these are the 'moderates'. The 'softly, softly' approach hasn't worked at all, in fact it has made things worse, however, blunt, uncompromising language and actions is making people sit up and take notice.

If you have a different strategy that will achieve the desired end goal, please share it and please express is clearly.

I agree with this. It takes a lot to stand up to the "be kind" / "why don't you think of that person's feelings" type of indoctrination and manipulation. I find it most shitty when it is women who try enforce "be kind" on other women.

As someone who was being pressured by my own family to "be kind" to my father (who physically abused every female in his life) including by my own mother (who ran away and left me with him) once I, finally, decided to cut him out of my life, hearing/reading statements like "think of how that poor person must feel, be kind, despite them crossing your boundaries" is similar to hearing nails on a chalkboard.

This is why I support women who stand firm and say no, no compromises, no being kind. We will speak up for our own interests, safety and spaces with no consideration to male interests.

You won't like my answer - they should face a criminal penalty and the premises that facilitated their entry should face a fine.

Interesting you portray transwomen as being unable to respect women's boundaries, wanting women to feel unsafe and/or uncomfortable and disregarding women's privacy and dignity. Very interesting take on the morals of transwomen.

You don't think very highly of your fellow transwomen do you?

They could, if they wanted to, have done a hell of a lot to change this, knowing what they know - lobbied for alternative provision due to the detrimental impact on women, banded together and stated en masse that they will always be using the facilities for their sex (the men's) and if other men don't like it tough, get over it. But they don't, they don't want to.

Yep. I've a lot of respect for the position of Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander on this issue: declaring loudly and proudly they'd be using male spaces, starting a campaign to overcome transphobia, etc.

I remember Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander starting that campaign. And I remember the abuse was so bad it went nowhere.

Imagine that! Two males campaigning to improve acceptance and safety of other males in the male toilet - went nowhere because of abuse.

This was another compromise that was trialled and failed.

However, I think that it is a good campaign and it should actually have significant backing. That this should be done regardless because it does make very clear that those wanting to support women and girls have options.

scratchedbymycat
..patronisingly of naïveté

I was the poster who mentioned naivety, I’m not going to go back through all the posts but I used the word naive about myself when I beco,Ming aware of the issue and I had non dissimilar views to you. It may be a semantic point but I said I was naive. It may imply you are also naive but it wasn’t a patronising accusation it was explaining I’d had similar views once back when I thought reasoning and compromise was an option and I now realise compromise has only ever been on one side and violence on the other. No intention to patronise. But my views have moved on and my username as well as I’d wince rereading some of my early earnest posts

Yes. @ArabellaScott and @EndlessTea it's a learning curve and I'm straddling these two conflicted places so I have each side in each ear.
In real life, I don't really encounter many forthright, clearly boundaried women (most of my female friends are very much deeply female-socialised and 'be kind')- so I find myself in a kind of Neverland. An outsider. Internally more and more disagreeable/opinionated and feeling the pull to conform, but feeling disconnected from them, and so Mumsnet is a lifeline- an inspiration of powerful, boundaried women (that's a great collective noun btw).
On here, I dip my toes in- still aware I'm hedging my bets in some way and still safely 'observing', and feeling that weird line that children feel where firm boundaries from others can be experienced as both comforting/liberating and frightening/aggressive.
So, I also admire posters like Cat, who are probably in a similar, more questioning, place to me in all this, and yet who engage more directly than I do.
It's all so fascinating to be part of and to feel this changing how I view myself and the world.

I always think of how 'awe' means both fear and admiration

You can practise being a horrible bam if you like. Go on, say something awful. I won't mind.

I'm a horrible bam! Deal with it!

😍

Well now..... Dame, you got it SORTED!

GO ON YERSEL HEN

I go and look up the word 'bam'....

And that was interesting.... and not what I expected..

Yep. The first meaning I found was "a loud, unexpected noise" 😆