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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans and losing my mind...

953 replies

bluepetergeneration · 18/02/2023 21:07

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 22/02/2023 16:34

DameMaud · 22/02/2023 16:27

I'm a horrible bam! Deal with it!

Wham bam, thank you ma'am!

Originally a derogatory description of American GI's sexual techniques, but it works here as an expression of appreciation

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 16:40

Wham! bam!

I am! a man!

Job or no job

You can't tell me that I'm not.…

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 22/02/2023 16:40

What do you think the penalty should be for trans woman who enters a female-only space if a full ban was brought into effect

Wouldnt it be the same as the penalty for any man entering female only spaces? It would depend on the situation, wouldnt it?

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 16:46

Sorry! 'Bam' is of course short for bampot.

HootyMcboob76 · 22/02/2023 16:52

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 16:46

Sorry! 'Bam' is of course short for bampot.

"Bampot is thought to be from barm, the froth found on the top of a fermenting liquid, which is also the source of the English colloquial word barmy , meaning crazy."

Also interchangeable with "bamstick" here in Edinburgh.

As in "this whole ideology is totally barmy. Anyone who adheres to it is a complete bamstick"".

Righthandcider · 22/02/2023 17:28

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 14:55

Crikey!

Loving 'crikey' as a response here.

I'm filing it next to 'you do you'.

nilsmousehammer · 22/02/2023 18:15

Well that's been an interesting day's read....

The cartoon of the skeleton on the rollercoaster nails it. Three or four years ago I was still at the stage of: limit it just to the fully transitioned and desperately gender dysphoric males in real need....

(Oh. But that's abandoning the females in real need who are bounced out of any space so I can save the male people in need and give them choice, leaving women without anything at all. Hm.)

And: the way forward is to be polite and not 'shrill'. To be the bigger person.

(Oh. That's me buying into sexism again isn't it? Women get heard only if they're nice enough, and polite enough, because they have to beg and soothe and placate in order to be heard, you have to make it think it's all his idea, gawd the 1950s want their oppression of women back. And... well. Women have been at this now for going on a decade. How is this tactic working for us really? Because the evidence suggests, this doesn't garner any respect, it's just taken advantage of as a sign of weakness, because this is standing up to a political lobby that is utterly devoid of any morals or ethics.)

It may take a couple of decades to turn around?

Yeah. Are we ok with twenty years of females being excluded from refuges, harmed in prisons and hospital wards, being increasingly afraid to and unwilling to use public changing rooms and toilets, and the evidence is showing this is not 'finding its level', male people are just getting bolder and more overt about it all. The body count of women excluded, harmed, frightened, raped, in all this niceness is climbing. Daily. I am not ok with that. A long term nicely nicely approach means abandoning other women.

The 'compromise' being talked of boils down to 'we limit it to just some men in real need'. Let's be honest.

As people have repeatedly explained:

You cannot limit it to some men and not others. Behind the OP is Bryson in floods of tears with just as sad a story. It cannot be done, it is not possible or realistic.

And to let some men in, excludes some women from anything so that some men can have the choice they feel they want and which would make them happy .

The price of compromise is women. You have to agree that you are all right with harming, excluding, women. You have to agree and face that you believe that people born without penises do not matter as much and it is ok for them not to have equality or access. And women saying that are coming from classes and educated backgrounds and sheltered backgrounds where they will never have to meet and face up to those women they're willing to sacrifice on the altar of sad male need, so feel ok with this.

Male supremacism is an opinion. But if that's what you're representing here, own it. Face up to it. Justify it.

As for 'what should happen to male people who enter a female only space....?'

Well what do you think should be the penalty imposed by society for excluding a female from any space or access at all? For dominating and controlling a space to push a female person out of it? For being unable and unwilling to permit female people access, inclusion, not meaning freedom of choice and matching their inner feelings but being able to go anywhere at all . For denying her health care? An escape from a lifethreatening relationship? For actively denying women equality of humanity with you and subordinating them to you needs?

It is abusive behaviour. It is prejudiced and discriminatory behaviour. It is shameful behaviour. And this is an attempt of a male, to tell women yet again, smugly, 'it's over. You can't stop us. We've taken that ground from you. Enjoy you're erasure'.

Fuck. That.

Datun · 22/02/2023 18:31

nilsmousehammer · 22/02/2023 18:15

Well that's been an interesting day's read....

The cartoon of the skeleton on the rollercoaster nails it. Three or four years ago I was still at the stage of: limit it just to the fully transitioned and desperately gender dysphoric males in real need....

(Oh. But that's abandoning the females in real need who are bounced out of any space so I can save the male people in need and give them choice, leaving women without anything at all. Hm.)

And: the way forward is to be polite and not 'shrill'. To be the bigger person.

(Oh. That's me buying into sexism again isn't it? Women get heard only if they're nice enough, and polite enough, because they have to beg and soothe and placate in order to be heard, you have to make it think it's all his idea, gawd the 1950s want their oppression of women back. And... well. Women have been at this now for going on a decade. How is this tactic working for us really? Because the evidence suggests, this doesn't garner any respect, it's just taken advantage of as a sign of weakness, because this is standing up to a political lobby that is utterly devoid of any morals or ethics.)

It may take a couple of decades to turn around?

Yeah. Are we ok with twenty years of females being excluded from refuges, harmed in prisons and hospital wards, being increasingly afraid to and unwilling to use public changing rooms and toilets, and the evidence is showing this is not 'finding its level', male people are just getting bolder and more overt about it all. The body count of women excluded, harmed, frightened, raped, in all this niceness is climbing. Daily. I am not ok with that. A long term nicely nicely approach means abandoning other women.

The 'compromise' being talked of boils down to 'we limit it to just some men in real need'. Let's be honest.

As people have repeatedly explained:

You cannot limit it to some men and not others. Behind the OP is Bryson in floods of tears with just as sad a story. It cannot be done, it is not possible or realistic.

And to let some men in, excludes some women from anything so that some men can have the choice they feel they want and which would make them happy .

The price of compromise is women. You have to agree that you are all right with harming, excluding, women. You have to agree and face that you believe that people born without penises do not matter as much and it is ok for them not to have equality or access. And women saying that are coming from classes and educated backgrounds and sheltered backgrounds where they will never have to meet and face up to those women they're willing to sacrifice on the altar of sad male need, so feel ok with this.

Male supremacism is an opinion. But if that's what you're representing here, own it. Face up to it. Justify it.

As for 'what should happen to male people who enter a female only space....?'

Well what do you think should be the penalty imposed by society for excluding a female from any space or access at all? For dominating and controlling a space to push a female person out of it? For being unable and unwilling to permit female people access, inclusion, not meaning freedom of choice and matching their inner feelings but being able to go anywhere at all . For denying her health care? An escape from a lifethreatening relationship? For actively denying women equality of humanity with you and subordinating them to you needs?

It is abusive behaviour. It is prejudiced and discriminatory behaviour. It is shameful behaviour. And this is an attempt of a male, to tell women yet again, smugly, 'it's over. You can't stop us. We've taken that ground from you. Enjoy you're erasure'.

Fuck. That.

That's exactly what it is.

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 18:43

I honestly cannot fathom the intricacies of what the fuck the 'compromise' discussion was all about.

It really seemed like either telling women to suck eggs OR it really was a sleight of hand way of saying 'just accept some males for now and let's work on the future'....

Either way, it seemed rather dishonest when you started to try to unravel it.

And not explainable in a clear and accurate way.

And rather than try to explain it, poster's declared no one was listening to them, or we were asking too many questions and they left. It really seemed like just more of the same, but this time it is different, because we worded it nicely/differently.

nilsmousehammer · 22/02/2023 18:49

Its a kindly, and generally well intentioned belief that those very very few genuinely distressed males can come in.

Which usually means really, "I don't mind"

And tries not to look at or face that this means "I'm ok with excluding some women from anything so that men in need can have their needs met with more choice and freedom".

Or that really this says "I don't believe that women deserve equality, and I'm prepared to support a two tier society that subordinates women because that doesn't affect me personally."

Yet.

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 18:52

Yes but nils we were constantly assured that we were just not understanding. That these posters meant that ultimately the hardline would be kept….

nilsmousehammer · 22/02/2023 18:55

I have been through that stage of naivety, I sympathise. The answer, as we are repeatedly told, is to educate yourself.

It's a grim process. But you realise that 'compromise' means 'women give up your rights' and that's the end of it.

And then you start to abandon your female socialisation, recognise and stop responding to manipulative behaviour, and face up to the fact that to be kind to the OP, you have to look women like Tinsel in the face and tell them "I don't care, you're on your own".

Datun · 22/02/2023 18:56

Helleofabore · 22/02/2023 18:52

Yes but nils we were constantly assured that we were just not understanding. That these posters meant that ultimately the hardline would be kept….

Yes, it's nonsense.

There was a befuddled thought process that went I'm sure I can persuade these sad men of the error their ways, because they've just said how much they support us, and I can say how much we support them too, but really, we do need our own spaces, if that's alright. And you uptight, cross women really need to understand that we can do this thing.

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 22/02/2023 19:22

@nilsmousehammer Well bloody said.

TinselAngel · 22/02/2023 19:24

I've just realised that this thread is the reason I've had "Losing my mind" by Liza Minnelli and the Pet Shop Boys, going round in my head all week.

ArabellaScott · 22/02/2023 19:43

Oh. Now I've got 'road rage' as an ear worm.

It's all over the front page you give me road rage
Racing through the best days,
It's up to you boy you're driving me crazy,
Thinking you may be losing your mind.
You're losing your mind.

MenopausalMe · 22/02/2023 19:47

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 22/02/2023 10:15

I wonder if the solution to help trans women (men who want to dress in a "female way") feel more safe in male hospital wards is that they should be considered for a side room.

Side rooms are in short supply and are used for medical reasons. If a man want to wear 'female' bed clothes in a hospital ward, great. But does it really take priority over someone who needs the space?

And should it take priority over desperately ill women who are survivors of sexual violence who end up in a mens ward because there’s no space anywhere else.

And that happens more than it should due to pressure on hospital beds

HootyMcboob76 · 22/02/2023 19:56

Side rooms are also often used for those nearing end of life so that family can visit in the final hours.

Give that over to appease a fucking man in a dress?

No fucking way.

MenopausalMe · 22/02/2023 20:10

scratchedbymycat

How does a TRA become an ex-TRA?

I can only talk about me but when I originally came onto this board I campaigned for trans rights but I was becoming a bit disturbed by the violence of what Tara Hudson was saying. (I also thought DH was a reasonable person).

Robust rebuttal of my arguments on FWR making me realise they were built on nothing other than males telling women to bekind converted me and as the penny dropped I was mortified I’d been such a gullible idiot.

In the 5 years since I’ve seen many an opening post like the OPs and they have always felt that in the category of special males they are extra special and we should be grateful they are speaking to us at all and never to my recollection have they ever conceded that they should listen when a woman says No

GiveMeStrengthNow · 22/02/2023 20:14

Promoting trans rights means that women are side-lined and that's ok with the trans right lot, trans and lots of men and women who don't appear to care much about women. I think many people forget that to give someone to a trans woman you take from real women. Trans women are not women they are trans women or biological men who identify as female for gender purposes. Why do they get to dictate what women should give up for them?

GiveMeStrengthNow · 22/02/2023 20:16

@nilsmousehammer

You put it brilliantly. Thank you for saying what many of us feel. I refuse to bow down to men who want to be woman and take from women - I say no.

RichardBarrister · 22/02/2023 20:31

TinselAngel · 22/02/2023 14:49

Is anybody going to acknowledge the effect on trans widows of being told to appease men like our abusers or am I talking to myself?

I feel so badly for women in your situation. I knew a trans widow many years ago before I found out about all this and it was horrendous for her and the kids. Their lives were ripped apart.

Helleofabore · 23/02/2023 05:56

scratchedbymycat · 22/02/2023 14:22

@DameMaud If that's a reference to me still posting, oh I know. Trust me.

But this is useful, I think, to the people who are lurking and might be considering talking on this forum. It has certainly been incredibly illuminating to me.

I think it has been useful but not in the way you expect.

Has it progressed women’s needs being considered by male people determined to use female spaces? No. That would be too much to expect.

I suspect lurkers will read this thread and see some posters trying to convince others that they have a compromise in mind that has never been thought of, but is still achievable apparently. Someone just has to come up with it yet or it is too hard to describe. And all attempts at trying to work out what that compromise meant resulted in nothing.

Or that maybe the word compromise was misused to describe the current status. Who the fuck knows at this point.

Reader will see twomale posters simply doubled down on their using female single sex spaces despite the many polite but assertive posts from women. And woman predicting it would happen and seeing that it did happen.

And they will see some posters used emotional manipulation, some of it was very blatant. Different posters for different reasons. Maybe to make themselves out to be the ‘reasonable’ posters. Maybe for other reasons. Again, I could guess but I could be very wrong in that guess so I won’t.

Numerous people gave feedback that they too interpreted the words in one particular post, including the tone iin which those words were posted, as inflammatory and that some posts resorted to emotionally manipulative tactics. Those numerous posts were never once acknowledged, by the way. Instead numerous personal attacks were felt to be acceptable and not once acknowledged to be inappropriate or proportionate.

I really don’t think this thread will be a demonstration of what you think it will be.

But it certainly showed that different opinions are alive on this board.

MenopausalMe · 23/02/2023 14:20

And this thread has been a useful reminder of that classic MN statement

‘No’ is a complete sentence

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 23/02/2023 14:43

MenopausalMe · 23/02/2023 14:20

And this thread has been a useful reminder of that classic MN statement

‘No’ is a complete sentence

Yep!

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