Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

Couldn't agree more, and thank you

Why not?

A number of men with a trans identity use men's toilets, why can't you?

I believe you should use the mens toilets because you are male. However you choose to dress/present etc does not change that.

As a male I don't expect you to fully understand this. However, many women have grown up to fear males for various valid reasons, they've been violently attacked, raped, stalked etc. A womens toilet is not somewhere they'd expect to bump into a male. Doing so could be extremely triggering and harmful. On more than one occasion I've run into womens toilets to escape men. You do not belong there.

That's not to mention the religious implications for some which I won't go into.

I'm not going to share information around how I became a parent but no, I didn't use a surrogate.

Do you think I should use the men's?

Yes. You are a male-bodied person - a man - and should use the men's toilets.

The single sex spaces for women - adult human females - are not yours for the taking.

It's not complicated. Humans cannot change sex and women's rights are not yours to take because you think you pass. You don't.

Women know the sex of those around them. What we do with the information depends on the circumstances, but you are not welcome to try it on by insisting on using women's single sex spaces.

Why not make efforts to have men accept you for who you are? You've made a life for yourself and that's great, but your safety isn't more important than mine or any other natal woman.

You're right, I don't understand and never will. I've experienced assault from men, but you're right I will never know what it's like to be a woman going through that.
Someone seeing me in a women's toilet would never think they are bumping into a male. I'm not denying that my chromosomes mean I am one, but for the exact reasons you said if I went into a men's toilets looking the way I do, I'd be in a lot of danger.

Why would you be in danger in the men's toilets?

I wouldn't anticipate being in danger by going into the men's toilets - I would expect to be told I was in the wrong room!

I assume you think men would know you were male? If men might know you were male women will know because we're much better at identifying human sex.

You shouldn't be using women's spaces.

I'm a man. You might have a problem in some "rough" areas, I wouldn't know, but in most toilets no one would care.

*just to clarify, I mean that no men would care if you went into our toilets.

Yes, I think that you have built up this imaginary danger in mens toilets but you have just as much right to use them as any other male. Transwomen use mens toilets without issue and if you just tried you would probably realise that it's mostly in your head. Maybe take another man in with you first of all for reassurance?

Other than toilets, how's life going?

Please don't use the disabled toilet if you are not disabled.

Please don't use the women's toilet as you are not a woman

You can use the men's toilet as you are a man.

If you feel scared going into the men's then I'm afraid you need to take that up with other men.

I've been reading the FWR pages for a while now (personal reasons as a parent) but not yet felt the need to comment. What I'm reading here is an OP agreeing with so many concerns that I have seen raised on these pages... and in return being launched upon.
Biological sex matters. That's what we're all saying here, including the OP.

The OP's personal safety also matters. I completely empathise with the OP saying that it's not safe being in a men's loos. It would be a wonderful world if trans women knew that every male accepted them for who they are when they go in to the men's loos wearing dresses or "looking female", but sadly some won't. And sometimes that will lead to violent attacks. It would also be a wonderful world if every biological female could feel safe walking home on their own in the dark. But again, sadly this isn't the case. Some people are vulnerable and in the majority of cases, male strength will "win" (yes, trans women have that male strength but how do they know they have enough to fend off an attack?).

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the answer is trans women should use woman's loos. But then nor is the OP.

Question for the audience. Some years ago, I remember a thread in which it was declared transphobic if a college told a female, trans-identifying teenager she was not to use the men's toilet. One trans-ally MNer, who calls herself AFAB, declared that the college's decision made her feel "fucking ill". No-one seemed to have any concerns for that teenage girl's safety at all.

So how come it is safe for teenage girls to use the men's provided they have short hair, but it is too dangerous for male transitioners to use them?

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the answer is trans women should use woman's loos. But then nor is the OP.

But the OP does use women's loos and expects women to accept it. The argument seems to be that some people are acceptable trans people and others aren't. No one can tell the difference and women shouldn't be put in the position of having to judge and police. No biologically male person should be tolerated in women-only facilities and OP needs to use the men's loos, as Miranda Yardley does. You can't say that you understand women's fear and then ask the rules to be relaxed for you. Not in sport, not in changing rooms, not in loos.

No one with a shred of empathy should have to be told to leave the disabled toilets for disabled people.

I sympathise with your situation but women have enough to do trying to defend their own rights so we're in no position to further your cause.

Six or seven years ago we might have been amenable to discussing workable compromises but we're wiser and more jaded now. We have been so abused and insulted by a group who claim to be the most vulnerable and oppressed whilst women are being gaslit, raped and suffering all manner of indignities in service of an ideology promoted by that group. Women can only dream of such power.

As a result our stance has, and continues to, harden. No men in women's spaces under any circumstances and the GRA needs to be repealed.

I bear the OP no ill will and think they should be able to live their life freely and in safety. The type of people who are likely to do the OP harm are not the type of people who will listen to women and they do not visit this board.

We are not and never will be responsible for the actions of violent men, if we had any control over that we would have solved male violence against women long ago. Gender ideology is yet one more form of male violence against women.

I don’t feel comfortable with the thought of you using women’s loos OP. I am glad you refer to yourself as ts though. It feels like colonisation when men use women’s words to describe themselves.

I do think it is very impractical to try to ‘pass’ as the opposite sex to relieve a mental health issue. If you really insist on doing so, then I think you should do a bit of research ahead of going out, about the toilet provision to make sure there are some you feel comfortable using, while not violating women’s boundaries eg- unisex cubicles in small establishments with a sink inside. A bit like the research disabled people need to do ahead of time. It’s impractical and annoying, but aside from presenting as your own sex, or bracing yourself and using the men’s while presenting as if you are a woman, I can’t think of any other solution that can work

This is a very good question.

But you expect us to accept you into our space

NO

Women didn’t agree to that. So no there are no exceptions, you made a choice why do you expect women to accommodate that choice? You can just dress like the majority of women in jeans, tee shirt hoody & no make-up when you go out and you’ll pass as male because you are. I wouldn’t because I’m not.

Someone seeing me in a women's toilet would never think they are bumping into a male

Don’t be ridiculous. We don't challenge the TW we encounter in the toilets out of fear, not because we haven't clocked the male

The argument seems to be that some people are acceptable trans people and others aren't. No one can tell the difference and women shouldn't be put in the position of having to judge and police.

I don't think it's about acceptable Trans people, I think it's about practicality and persuasion.

A very small number of people have such severe GD that they choose to radically alter their appearance (and often bodies) to appear the opposite sex all the time. Like it or not there is no practical way to stop them using the toilets of the opposite sex.

There is a larger group of men who know perfectly well they don't pass but seem to enjoy violating boundaries. This group are by far the bigger threat to women and they can be policed.

If we focus on the first group we look like zealous, impractical meanies. If we keep the debate about the legal and social framework (not individuals or points of principle) needed to protect women we will win.

Not disagreeing but the way I read the OP's post, it sounds like using the women's loos is a last resort rather than a first choice.

Perhaps the nuance of true gender dysphoria has been lost in all the arguing amongst opposing views?

If I understood correctly, the OP says that biological men will always be biological men.

I guess it's just rather sad that a biological man can't wear dresses or "women's clothes" without being judged. Women can wear trousers and "men's clothes".

I wonder if it would be more helpful for all (including children "identifing as the opposite gender") if gender dysphoria/incongruence was considered and treated as a mental illness? Again, I refer back to the OP who said as much (if I understand correctly). Mental illness deserves compassion and understanding. Nobody chooses it and everyone deserves help to feel at peace with who they are if they need it. The idea that someone should need to medically alter their body by taking hormones or having surgery just to achieve that peace feels incredibly sad. Surely there are more ways for the health care sector to provide support.