Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

Yeah, but so what?

why do I have to care ?

How can exploiting a woman's body to create a child not be misogynistic?

How can ignoring women and girls saying 'no' to a male's wants because that male wants to ignore them not be misogynistic?

I can easily see why a male would not see these as misogynist acts.

I am curious as to how someone reading this would not see these as misogynist acts.

No @scratched, But that’s the whole point isn’t it? I can’t understand what it is to be a male with a trans identity, and OP cannot understand what it is to be a woman. OP as very clear that he would use womens spaces even though it had been pointed out this was against womens wishes, then preceded to state he was an ally to women. Can you not see the misogyny in that? Why should women not call him out on his misogynistic attitudes?

There's a difference between disagreeing over issues and trying to make a point via a string of personal insults.
Like people are "odd" and must be speaking English as a second language?

So is saying a male is 'mysognistic' when they are considered to be the hostile act? That was then described as 'ripping into'?

And people are thick and don’t read threads apparently 🙄🙄🙄. Or how the TRA behave. This ain’t our first rodeo @scratchedbymycat

*Yeah, but so what?

why do I have to care ?*

You don't have to care at all. But that is what I meant by the words 'ripping into' which I was told was me being inflammatory on this thread. How is it inflammatory if the person in the receiving end feels it, which you concede? Is it inflammatory for me to point out the bloody obvious?

Who knew Nic had such skills as the bringer of light relief?

So, we are not allowed to tell males that they are posting in a misogynistic fashion because it might make them feel they have overstepped in some way and might cause them dissonance?

What words should we use then?

and if my post is a misinterpretation, please feel free to correct that misinterpretation.

@Helleofabore apparently we are allowed to point this out but only if we use really nice language, tug our forelocks and put sparkly hearts on it. That was the problem. If we our sparkly hearts on it’s not “ripping into”.

You forgot 'vile' which I wrote when I was accused of being personally abusive. I did explain the second language reference, but let's keep in in there. So you have 'odd', 'vile' and a 'ref to second language'.

I have this:

In response, posters have accused me of appeasement, patronisingly of naïveté and less experience than posters who disagree, that I'm advocating for fawning obeisance, that I am defending these men, that I'm being "just be kind", that I can't say 'no' to men, DARVO, that I am expecting women to give energy to helping men with their feelings, that I am emotionally manipulative and trying to silence women, cruelly defending the rights of men to use female spaces, starting a conversation that upsets women requiring flowers to be passed, that I think we should invite men into womens toilets, implying I'll hand wave away a story about an experience of sexual assault in a toilet, that I am envisaging a solution where women agree to be kind and protective, supporting the OP in violating boundaries, attempting to shame posters,

But so what?

this is a man so sexist he literally believes putting on a skirt makes him a woman

his views are a little suspect, yes?

Are you deliberately trying to inflame and be patronising by listing the obvious; just because you misunderstood my point and now want to show you know better the history and ins and outs of the movement. You don't!

I quite admire Scratched for sticking with it on here - but I haven't got the time.
There have always been quite unpleasant spats on Mumsnet from time to time - which get quite personal in tone. That's a shame.

For the last couple of years i've not really engaged in discussion on here, I've been a silent member of the community; using the board purely to keep up to date with the various campaigns, transcripts from court cases and so on.
And I'm not here now to make friends or to spend all day enagaging in back and forth. And I won't be any further on this thread.

I was going to post a couple of the rules of misogyny but at this point I think it's easier just to link to them all!

4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/amp/

@DameMaud If that's a reference to me still posting, oh I know. Trust me.

But this is useful, I think, to the people who are lurking and might be considering talking on this forum. It has certainly been incredibly illuminating to me.

"DARVO" was from me and it wasn't a personal insult.

It's not all useful! Absolutely nothing has been achieved.

Other than most people, including you presumably, still thinking the Op is wrong but with you claiming we should have used better words!

Oh. Am I vile too? Either I blanked that out or missed it.

Did you have an answer as to how I personally attacked you the way that you personally attacked me?

You keep posting that paragraph.

As far as I can work out the reference to me was:

"that I am emotionally manipulative and trying to silence women" and "attempting to shame posters".

So, these two things that I did was worthy of personal attack of being called 'odd', comments about my language ability and I am 'vile'?

Can I point out that here we are parsing when we can call out a male's misogynistic behaviour and when we can't so that other people don't then interpret that as 'ripping into' someone?

Which is essentially manipulating women on when they can and cannot call out misogyny when they feel they have seen it? Because a male might perceive it as hurtful?

Can others explain to me how this is not emotionally manipulative? Because I obviously am missing something here.

Like the disconnect of being told to compromise, when the compromise is not about the hardline, it is about somebody's perception that women are not organising all the discussions, all the committee submissions, all the events where people discuss things and feedback to governments etc. When women have done, are doing and will continue to do this. The supposed compromise is something already in action. But apparently it isn't because women on this thread said 'no' - with all the wonderful explanatory posts reduced to 'you all just say 'no'.'

@NotHavingIt I'm not sticking it out because I think any common ground or resolution will come from. Maybe some who have fallen quiet have seen what's actually happened here.

But lurkers really need to take note. This is not the space you might think it is. You may speak, but only the right words.

If you get the wrong words, you will be told what a horrendous person you are - like you are 'the enemy'.

Those accusations will reference misogyny and abuse and all sorts. If you have ever directly experienced abuse yourself, those words will be very very hard to hear.

scratched that's a lot of shite.

If you have ever directly experienced abuse yourself, those words will be very very hard to hear.
But nobody seems to mind that trans widows are being told we should compromise with men like our abusers, despite us having explained the futility of attempting to do so.

scratched

Have you read this because you posted it?

I mean, really read it. Do you see what you have done here? You are the one who posted about the wrong words being used to start with.

And when people have tried to ask you what the words are that you would find acceptable, you cannot answer. Why?

Emotional manipulation is bullshit.

Is that yet another attempt at emotional manipulation @scratchedbymycat ? Because sorry but no. I have been the victim of coercive control and abuse and I can see the parallels between that and my abuser very clearly. Told I am abusive because I don’t agree, tone policed, accused of micro aggressions until I was policing my every word myself, and became too scared to open my mouth. Well it didn’t work then and it’s not working here.