Page 25 | Let Women SPeak - Australia & NZ tour

ZombieMumEB · 2023-02-11T06:41:04+00:00

I am so excited that this is coming to Australia - I will hopefully be attending. Anyone else?

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 08:34

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 23/03/2023 00:46

When did politics become a binary, anyway? Or possibly a unary. When I was a child, it was a spectrum. Now everyone seems to be "far right".

Where are the people in between the centre and the "far right"? Like, the near right? In fact, is there even a centre any more?

What??

I can't help wondering who you hang out with, if you think 'everyone seems to be far right'.

You seem to have magically forgotten everyone - historically including most Mumsnetters - who are on the left.

Politics IS a spectrum.

The point is that the far right are at the very far, unacceptable, end of it. There has never been any question about that.

I will yet again draw readers' attention to the curiously high number of recent posters on this board apparently keen to normalise the far right.

How interesting.

Hmmm.

Helleofabore · 23/03/2023 08:36

“Usually, I'm quite for the bluntness and bullheadedness of KJK over this issue (troonacy) - but now isn't the time to ignore your detractors, in fact, would be dangerous to do so, as it is empowering actual Neo Nazis to think they can align themselves with the gender critical movement.”

Has she ignore detractors? She has denounced the Nazis. Did you know she had denounced nazi and far right people back in 2019, I seem to remember her stating she had nothing to do with any far right group last year, in 2022. And she has denounced this week. That is three times at least that I know of.

How many more times does she have to do it? Has it stopped other women from claiming she is associated with the ‘far right’? Has it stopped any males from coming and attempting to silence women?

What do you think her denouncing it daily, weekly, monthly, bimonthly will achieve?

And again, as I have repeatedly said, the National Socialist Network did not attend in support of women! FFS! Are you seriously here saying those men have ‘aligned’ with what so many women are working for?

I will say it again.

Those men spent 45 minutes down the end of the protest in front of and antagonising the Victorian socialists and ANTIFA they spent about 15 minutes on the stairs, still detached, but on the stairs near the women. They then marched in salute past trans people. Those men were NOT there to support women. They were there to antagonise all other groups. And they did it without violence on that day so the police fucking let them!!!

Ask the fucking right questions!!! Why did the Victorian Police allow those men, who I have to assume assume they knew who they were, into that area to inflame already violent protestors? And to then stand beside the women? Without a police barrier?

FOJN · 23/03/2023 08:36

xxyzz

How many times do you think we need to denounce Nazis before we've earned the right to be listened to? The more we keep denying it the more we give power to our accusers. Keep it up and I can see our detractors resorting to "me thinks the lady doth protest too much", it will turn into "no one who is not a Nazi needs to deny they are a Nazi. Let's stop pouring petrol on the flames and keep taking about the things which really matter.

In fact I think this is what will happen and I'm calling it now.

AlisonDonut · 23/03/2023 08:38

If she repeatedly says she isn't you'll get people saying 'She doth protest too much'

If she doesn't they will say 'She doesn't protest vehemently enough'

Whatever she does she will get attacked because the main aim is to shut her up. It really won't matter either way.

Are most people going to assume that women and girls having single sex spaces is a nazi position?

Or that not wanting kids to be given life altering drugs and surgeries is a nazi policy?

I mean, have nazis been historically for gay, lesbian, autistic kids to live long and fruitful lives?

Can people even make their way to the end of a sentence these days?

Helleofabore · 23/03/2023 08:39

Fallingirl · 23/03/2023 03:14

Why are you saying "a group of socialist feminists don't want her (KJK) to be associated with the far right?".

Minirriot, you are not quoting Helleofabore correctly. What she said was “ a group of socialist feminists want her to be not associated with them.”. I’m pretty sure Helle meant the socfems don’t want KJ to be associated with themselves.

We know the socfems wanted KJK to dissapear back in 2018, and have born a grudge ever since that she didn’t. I think that is what Helle is referring to, rather than suggesting that the socfems din’t want KJ associated with the far right.

For what it’s worth, I think the socfems would be delighted if KJ did actually associate herself with an assortment of extreme neonazi undesirables. It would save them having to invent so many lies.

Yes. Thank you.

I am on my phone and haven’t got the energy to go back and check and copy and paste hasn’t been working so well for me lately on the devices either.

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 08:41

Helleofabore · 23/03/2023 08:23

”Why are you saying " a group of socialist feminists don't want her (KJK) to be associated with the far right?". That seems a weird thing to say, surely no gender critical person wants KjK to be associated with the far right? Unless they don't think the far right are scum.”

If you had read my other posts before that, you might have noticed me asking about who was considered the ‘far right’?

You might have noticed I said that ‘far right’ and ‘Nazi’ is thrown around so much that it is now meaningless.

So, I am glad you asked the question. No. I don’t want KJK to be associated with ‘the far right’. But please go back and see my point that currently ‘the far right’ seems to mean anything to the ‘right’ of socialism. Centrists have been accused of being ‘far right’ by some people.

Have I explained my point better? Feel free to ask me further.

Curious post, given there are literal photos and videos of actual Nazis sieg-heiling at the recent event - are these men not clearly 'far right' enough to be labelled as such, for you??

If not, how high is your bar?? What exactly do you think will make it clear that someone DOES deserve to be labelled as far right or neo-Nazi, if this behaviour doesn't qualify?

Do you think all Nazis are on an official Nazi list or something?

Can you really not see what distinguishes these men from centrists???

Methinks you doth protest way way too much. Seriously overplaying your hand here.

Will be fascinated to hear your answer.

BezMills · 23/03/2023 08:41

But you’re just being naive if you think that anyone is going to hear that message if there are pictures of men sieg-heiling in the images - which let's face it, is what most people will see (the headline and the picture - most won't even read the articles).

And what, pray tell, is KJK supposed to do about that? These MEN turned up at a Let Women Speak event uninvited, and were not screened at all by the police. How is any of that KJK's fault and what is she supposed to be doing, in your opinion, about that?

gwrachod · 23/03/2023 08:42

Helleofabore · 23/03/2023 00:28

Why do I, personally, think women have been telling her to denounce the far right?

Because a group of socialist feminists want her to be not associated with them. Hell, they even have a sin page on their website listing her sins!

Because that group of women were then not satisfied that she said fine, I am happy doing my own thing and then leaving her to doing her own thing. They needed to vilify her some more.

I have seen the emotive arguments. Had them lobbed at me over the past few days. ‘Don’t I know how much harder it is for me (the poster) to talk to my MP because of her?’ Well actually, I have been emailing my MP from before KJK became known, and you know what, they still use the same reasoning and dismissal. Do you know what has helped? More women from my electorate emailing the MP. Women who are encouraged to do so partly because KJK encourages them to do so!

And then I was asked, didn’t I know how much harder it is to talk to the school since KJK was responsible for feminists getting known as being aligned with the far right ? To which I replied that I have found evidence to present to my school and discuss things with them rationally used evidenced discussion points. From multiple women’s groups and including information I have heard from women speaking at SFW rallies!

Shall I go on with the highly emotive and manipulative and also unevidenced accusations that have been lobbed at me in the past few days? Or do you get the idea?

There is a place for all voices. You have stated your opinion. It has no evidence to support it. You have made clear you have a prejudiced view of a woman and this has made you think that everyone is against you that answers.

No. We are pointing out you have no evidence for the claims you have made. Your claims seem to be the same ones I have seen from a group of socialist feminists who seem to have crossed over to having personal grudges that from what I see is based on misrepresentation and conveniently reframing of what has been said to avoid the fact that other ‘approved’ feminists have also said things about the topics they are said are hateful.

Your claims sound very similar and yet you believe we should accept your claims at face value. Or else what? You are going to call us worshippers? You are going to say we are the wrong sort of feminists?

Do you really think we have not heard it all before? From TRAs?

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And this is where the KJK's narcissistic attempt to control the narrative shows through.

The socfems have explained that if KJK has the far right turning up at her events, and she doesn't distance herself from them, then it will harm the political work they are engaged in. Work which is seeing results.

Many of these women have been engaged in politics and grass roots activism for decades.

But instead of taking them in good faith, that they actually know what they're talking about based on experience, there is this whole story laid on top about how they're jealous of KJK, or don't want ordinary women speaking. It's absolute bollocks, but typical narc spin.

KJK is the kind of person who needs enemies, she thrives on confrontation. And she's spun this story to make socfems the enemy, and you're regurgitating it here. You have the cheek to ask me for evidence, when you're coming out with this absolute nonsense?

That you've not come across such push back doesn't mean it isn't happening. As others have said, politicians will back off a mile if they think they will be associated with nazis. I don't know why this isn't obvious to you?

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 23/03/2023 08:44

Well, when TERFs are also apparently Nazis I’m a bit confused about who KJK should be denouncing….

NotYourCisterinAus · 23/03/2023 08:44

Watching "The Bolt Report" right now (which is not something I'd ever thought I'd say!) and he just called out the behaviour of the TRAs at the Let Women Speak rallies and the biased reporting of the MSM. (How ironic!)

Talking of behaviour, I've been thinking that the Greens' puerile behaviour over the last few days has demonstrated that they're stuck in a student union level of politics. Lord knows there are enough badly behaved politicians in all parties, but I don't want to trust government to the hands of people acting like stopping teenagers.

AlisonDonut · 23/03/2023 08:46

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 08:41

Curious post, given there are literal photos and videos of actual Nazis sieg-heiling at the recent event - are these men not clearly 'far right' enough to be labelled as such, for you??

If not, how high is your bar?? What exactly do you think will make it clear that someone DOES deserve to be labelled as far right or neo-Nazi, if this behaviour doesn't qualify?

Do you think all Nazis are on an official Nazi list or something?

Can you really not see what distinguishes these men from centrists???

Methinks you doth protest way way too much. Seriously overplaying your hand here.

Will be fascinated to hear your answer.

Show quote history

They are just another example of men in womens' spaces.

Some men in pink and blue, some in black. All with their own agenda. Nothing to do with SFW. Do you not see this is the same problem? If they were interested in what the women were saying they'd have stood and listened and clapped.

beastlyslumber · 23/03/2023 08:48

Of course our key messages should be about women’s and children's safety and rights.

What do you mean, "our key messages"? What is the organisation or group you think we all belong to with you?

You might not like it, and nor do I, but it's the only way our ideas will get any oxygen. The longer we hold back on this, the less anyone will hear anything we actually have to say.

Oh really? What is it that "we" have to say? Because the last time I saw you, you were saying FWR is "overrun with racists" @xxyzz

And while you're at it, please explain how we are supposed to "surgically remove" Nazis from our events?

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 08:48

FOJN · 23/03/2023 08:36

xxyzz

How many times do you think we need to denounce Nazis before we've earned the right to be listened to? The more we keep denying it the more we give power to our accusers. Keep it up and I can see our detractors resorting to "me thinks the lady doth protest too much", it will turn into "no one who is not a Nazi needs to deny they are a Nazi. Let's stop pouring petrol on the flames and keep taking about the things which really matter.

In fact I think this is what will happen and I'm calling it now.

I think that's rubbish.

We need to say it very clearly, preferably in writing. At any point when the far right try to forced team with us. And preferably before that, to make it clear that any neo-Nazis who do still choose to turn up at our events anyway, do not do so with our blessing.

What you're doing is blaming women like me for the accusations of links to the far right - ie if we are accused of this, the REAL blame lies with women who tried to draw a line between us and the far right.

I see you and your victim-blaming. Getting your attacks on women in early, I see.

How convenient.

Helleofabore · 23/03/2023 08:48

Who are troons? What is this word referring to?

DameMaud · 23/03/2023 08:50

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 23/03/2023 00:22

Datun If I'm charitable, this reminds me of a children's history book I read as a child. This book said that the actions of the Suffragettes delayed women getting the vote, and women actually got the vote as a reward for working so hard during WWI. The moral lesson seemed to be that they should have only written polite letters to ministers, while hoping for a world war to break out so they could earn the vote. Women weren't entitled to demand it as a right, and it was for men to gift it.

Obviously, at the time, I believed this fully, and felt very cross with the Pankhursts for sabotaging women; today I think it was a leetle more complex than that.

But if you do believe that all those women who took direct action were letting their sisters down by not leaving it solely to the suffragists, then I see why you might have an issue with KJK.

But if you don't have an issue with the WSPU's actions in campaigning for the vote, then let me remind you that KJK has never endorsed sending letter bombs. She just goes everywhere to talk, regardless of physical threats from men. Incidentally, the WSPU did exactly that too. Their documents from the time describe the violent men that gathered to suppress their meetings.

Someone posted this a while ago

AlisonDonut · 23/03/2023 08:50

gwrachod · 23/03/2023 08:42

And this is where the KJK's narcissistic attempt to control the narrative shows through.

The socfems have explained that if KJK has the far right turning up at her events, and she doesn't distance herself from them, then it will harm the political work they are engaged in. Work which is seeing results.

Many of these women have been engaged in politics and grass roots activism for decades.

But instead of taking them in good faith, that they actually know what they're talking about based on experience, there is this whole story laid on top about how they're jealous of KJK, or don't want ordinary women speaking. It's absolute bollocks, but typical narc spin.

KJK is the kind of person who needs enemies, she thrives on confrontation. And she's spun this story to make socfems the enemy, and you're regurgitating it here. You have the cheek to ask me for evidence, when you're coming out with this absolute nonsense?

That you've not come across such push back doesn't mean it isn't happening. As others have said, politicians will back off a mile if they think they will be associated with nazis. I don't know why this isn't obvious to you?

Show quote history

The socfems have explained that if KJK has the far right turning up at her events, and she doesn't distance herself from them, then it will harm the political work they are engaged in. Work which is seeing results.

Many of these women have been engaged in politics and grass roots activism for decades

Results? The results comes from the pictures at SFW events showing the SNP in front of 'Decapitate TERFS' signs. This has all gone on, under the noses of soc fems and their 'political work' which has let men do what they want without any soc fems raising an eyebrow.

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 08:50

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gwrachod · 23/03/2023 08:51

BezMills · 23/03/2023 08:41

But you’re just being naive if you think that anyone is going to hear that message if there are pictures of men sieg-heiling in the images - which let's face it, is what most people will see (the headline and the picture - most won't even read the articles).

And what, pray tell, is KJK supposed to do about that? These MEN turned up at a Let Women Speak event uninvited, and were not screened at all by the police. How is any of that KJK's fault and what is she supposed to be doing, in your opinion, about that?

Women explained, back in September, when the far right turned up at KJK's events, that they'd be back if she didn't make it very clear they weren't welcome.

What did she do? A video saying everyone was welcome.

KJK hates to be told what to do and loves attention. That's a core problem.

And no, the far right don't necessarily need to support her, they just need to know they'll be tolerated. What many of them really want is some recreational violence with the TRAs / Antifa.

And now they're turning up, unless KJK has a plan to deal with them, there's a real risk that her events are fucked. The more violence there is, the more the media will focus on that, and the more men wanting a fight will turn up the next time. The women's voices will be eclipsed, the media won't care what they were saying. Those of us for whom this isn't our first rodeo have seen it before. The only way you get the far right to fuck off is by making it very clear they're not welcome, refusing to go ahead with your event if they do turn up, and engaging with the police to remove them.

If you say "everyone is welcome" and "what is the far right anyway" and other such nonsense, plus "what are we supposed to do about it" you're not fit to organise political rallies IMO. It's putting the people who attend and the wider movement at risk.

WomanXXWorldsOriginsofMothersofAllNations · 23/03/2023 08:51

Helleofabore · 23/03/2023 08:48

Who are troons? What is this word referring to?

Yes, I was surprised at this, and that the post was still standing. That is a word that for e.g. KiwiFarms uses to describe transgendered people.

xxyzz · 23/03/2023 08:51

southbiscay · 23/03/2023 08:02

Sorry not read the whole thread but coming on to say that, irrespective of the good work Posie has done, the optics of this antipodean visit are really not great and will cement in people's and politician's minds a very unhealthy link between Nazis and those women pushing for a halt to gender identity ideology.

It's not true and it's not fair but unfortunately that's not what matters. KJK needs to be much more vehement in her rejection of them as this is currently giving the TRAs so much fodder that will undo hard fought-for progress.

This.

FOJN · 23/03/2023 08:51

The socfems have explained that if KJK has the far right turning up at her events, and she doesn't distance herself from them, then it will harm the political work they are engaged in. Work which is seeing results.

It's a good job that the "work" is seeing results because I'm not.

Rosie Duffield unable to attend her own party conference because of fears for her safety.

A male Labour MP treating a female Conservative MP is a frightengly aggressive and unprofessional way in the HoC, apparently without sanction.

LWD declaration denied a stand (which remained empty) at the Labour party conference.

Keir Starmer refusing to meet with women's groups within the Labour party. I think they have now managed one meeting after asking for 4 years.

I could go on but hopefully you get the picture.

KJK does not call herself a feminist, she has been denounced again and again and again and again by Soc Feminists, if the the misogynists in Labour won't speak to you it's not because of KJK, it's because they hold you in contempt and are looking for an excuse not to work with you. Perhaps you should stop giving them that excuse.

beastlyslumber · 23/03/2023 08:53

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No. Please provide your evidence that I am a supporter of the far right, or retract this comment and apologise.

Helleofabore · 23/03/2023 08:53

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Sorry, just waking up.

”Because a group of socialist feminists want her to be not associated with them. Hell, they even have a sin page on their website listing her sins!”

To be clear. A group of socialist feminists want her to be not associated with ‘them’, that specific group of feminists. The group of feminist with a bullying sin page on their website.

I was not saying ‘them’ as in ‘far right’ groups or individuals.

But as I said, thank you for asking me to clarify and not just interpreting that in the worst light. I appreciate being asked to clarify.

Anactor · 23/03/2023 08:55

XXYZ - oh, right, so an univited bunch of nazis turn up to a protest this thread is discussing - and we all have to drop what we're discussing and denounce the Nazi's.

Great way to disrupt things, isn't it? Stop people discussing what they actually want to discuss and talk about what you want to discuss.

Congratulations on derailing the thread. I'm particularly impressed by your Catch 22 technique of 'if you say this isn't what we want to talk about, that proves you're far-right.'

beastlyslumber · 23/03/2023 08:57

The socfems have explained that if KJK has the far right turning up at her events, and she doesn't distance herself from them, then it will harm the political work they are engaged in.

How can she distance herself more than she already has? And why do they think it has anything to do with them? If KJK is so [whatever] why don't they just ignore her, instead of making her the heart of everything they do?

Work which is seeing results.

What results? Getting a few gullible people to slag off KJK on Mumsnet?