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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keir Starmer confirms Labour will push ahead with self ID (7th Feb 2023)

329 replies

Thelnebriati · 08/02/2023 12:46

Despite everything that has happened over the past few days;

Ben Bradshaw
''A warm welcome for @ Keir_Starmer as he recommits to reforming the UK’s out of date gender recognition process at tonight’s @ LGBTLabour @ LGBTHM
reception in Parliament''

twitter.com/BenPBradshaw/status/1623032232284721189

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 11/02/2023 12:25

@suggestionsplease1 I think we are using different definitions of 'women's rights'.
Women have been asking for more equality and a less gendered society for decades; suddenly the goalposts are moved and everything becomes possible.
Somehow the fact that women are erased as a sex class is not considered an issue.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 11/02/2023 12:27

The EHCR says that but may not be right. There is the danger of people bringing law suits against people who try to uphold it.

Lady Haldane judged that sex in the Equality Act is not biological, for example. She may be wrong but who is going to want to spend a hundred thousand on a court case to find out?

The word ‘sex ‘ I’m the Equality Act is supposed to mean biological sex, but in practice it is not clear it can’t be trumped by ‘legal’ sex.

This of Law Professor Michael Foran talking about the effect on gay men ( sex based orientation).
twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1620825657793024004?s=20&t=-CQC_NZVriHmgnlHwYtKCg

Here is is again saying sex in the Equality Act is biological ( to Caroline Nokes saying that is not sure) but there could be a law suit brought regardless.
twitter.com/sexmattersorg/status/1620785398908850176/mediaviewer
twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1620785398908850176/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1620785398908850176¤

mrshoho · 11/02/2023 12:35

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/02/2023 12:01

It’s impossible to know if harm against women has increased in counties with self ID because - guess what!! In those counties if a man commits a crime and self IDs as a woman then the crime is recorded as being committed by a woman. That is a feature not a bug of self ID

also as has been pointed out on here a gazillion times, it’s not just about crime it’s about our right to dignity, privacy and our own single sex spaces away from men however they present! Not to mention women from faiths and cultures where mixed sex spaces are not acceptable

if a TW started to show up in the women’s changing rooms of my local pool, I would stop going. Not because they’re a TW but because they’re a man. Where would that be recorded? Nowhere

and this is fucking obvious to anyone with half a brain - starmer knows all this, he’s just more afraid of the massed ranks of TRA in his party than he is of women

And press/radio silence on possible crimes due to legalities of misgendering. It's a disgrace and i know in Ireland the cracks are showing but women's rights groups have a massive uphill struggle even just speaking out.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/02/2023 12:41

I'm torn because on the one hand even if you cant change your sex but someone is trans and just wants to live their life in peace then why not make it as easy as possible

There are other ways than legally lying on a birth certificate, and saying transwomen actually are women under all circumstances.

They could for example have a short form birth certificate with their new name and gender, but at the same have their sex and original name traceable for the police and DBS. They could have special spaces for prisons, changing rooms etc for their safety and dignity.

The present arrangements and propaganda from Libby groups mean they are not just living their life in peace but setting up problems for the majority of the population including even the erasure of language relating to women.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/02/2023 12:41

lobby groups

GailBlancheViola · 11/02/2023 12:51

I'm torn because on the one hand even if you cant change your sex but someone is trans and just wants to live their life in peace then why not make it as easy as possible.

There's no even about it, changing sex is an impossibility.

Make it easy as possible - simple solution additional, extra spaces.

On the other hand I do agree that biological men in a woman's space isn't right most of the time. Surely more can be done on this issue or amends to the EA that explicitly just say that by default trans women cannot go in cis women's spaces.

Biological men in women's spaces, services, sports, etc., isn't right at any time.

Please don't use the term 'cis', it is an insult and for that reason not allowed on here. Women are not a subset of their own sex class. Transwomen are male, part of the male sex class.

And an alternate should be provided. Maybe this is what Starmer means, although who knows.

I would bet the farm that this isn't what Starmer means.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/02/2023 12:59

Look out for K.S. talking about women’s ‘safe’ spaces.

That sleight of hand is a replacement for women’s SEX based spaces.

Please note too that for K.S. ‘women’ includes transwomen. For him women are a mixed class consisting of women by biology and women by gender.

DrMarciaFieldstone · 11/02/2023 13:09

I'm torn because on the one hand even if you cant change your sex but someone is trans and just wants to live their life in peace then why not make it as easy as possible

Not at the expense of women.

SomethingLikeThisNow · 11/02/2023 13:18

DrMarciaFieldstone · 11/02/2023 13:09

I'm torn because on the one hand even if you cant change your sex but someone is trans and just wants to live their life in peace then why not make it as easy as possible

Not at the expense of women.

That's the thing isn't it. Why at the expense of women?

Why are women in prisons, hospital, care, changing rooms, toilets, sports all acceptable collateral damage in the rush to make life simple for the men struggling to accept their sex?

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 11/02/2023 15:10

Another genuine Q - some of you would not vote labour because of this issue even though another Tory govt would do so much more harm to women Through economic and other social policies - increase of DV for example, lack of access to healthcare, lack of childcare means cycles of poverty continue

If labour get in,
How will we know if theres an increase in DV? If a man just has to say I am a woman then women on women crimes will increase, so not DV necessarily. And certainly skewing the stats.

What lack of access to healthcare? Men can be women and even if they need Male healthcare it will be classed as female healthcare, will officially improve womens access.
What lack of childcare? The men who are women wont need childcare as they never take on the drudge work of being women, so yet again stats will be skewed.

What poverty? Men who are women still out earn cunty women, when you send out a questionnaire and shit loads of"women" are earning tons of money, suddenly there is no poverty or much less, governments can congratulate themselves on a job well done, with no money going to the women who really need it.

Everything that effects women will disappear. Statistics will tell us that women are doing just fine, nothing extra needed.

We will even excel in sports.

Our lives hinge on being a separate class of people who need certain things, dignity, privacy and a few spaces where men cannot enter among other things Once we have lost these, it will be am epic battle to regain them.
Imagine you need an operation, you certain your ok with men on the same ward?

Imagine you go to prison for wrong think or maybe hateful haberdashery or as is currently in the news, protesting. You really sure you want to be locked up with men. Not just one man, many men.

Less dramatic, your daughter joins the local running team*, is good at it, could go further, loves it, its given her a sense of belonging, a sense of team, a freedom. She will never get anywhere. She will never win, she will never go further. She wont keep going, she has lost a hobby that meant so much. In reality she will never even join the team, because all us women know, theres no point. Look at every record of sports since we began recording them. In almost every sport, womens records never get close to mens records. The fastest woman, will never outrun the fastest man,

*pick your sport.

In every scenario currently it's one man, isla, Jessica, rachel/veronica, laurel, lia, Emily, caster, CeCe, Lauren, Fallon's, andraya,

In reality it would be many men. Who wouldnt want to go down in the history books for being the best in their sport? It's an easy win and requires no change, and as men, with men, they aren't winning. So sports would boil down to men and other men. I'm not sure women would even bother trying to rescue sports for themselves, it's too easy for men to take over.
What prisoner wouldn't like an easier time in the womens prison?
What man wouldnt prefer to be in the womens ward? Safer innit.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/02/2023 15:14

Don’t forget to sign and share this very important petition to
update the Equality Act to make clear that sex is biological sex, not sex as modified by a gender recognition certificate.

The Government has tried to say everything is fine as it is. It isn’t. The law has been muddied by new meanings creeping in.

Don’t leave this till it is too late.
Please ✍️ & 📣📣📣📣
⬇️
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

twitterexile · 11/02/2023 15:51

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 11/02/2023 15:10

Another genuine Q - some of you would not vote labour because of this issue even though another Tory govt would do so much more harm to women Through economic and other social policies - increase of DV for example, lack of access to healthcare, lack of childcare means cycles of poverty continue

If labour get in,
How will we know if theres an increase in DV? If a man just has to say I am a woman then women on women crimes will increase, so not DV necessarily. And certainly skewing the stats.

What lack of access to healthcare? Men can be women and even if they need Male healthcare it will be classed as female healthcare, will officially improve womens access.
What lack of childcare? The men who are women wont need childcare as they never take on the drudge work of being women, so yet again stats will be skewed.

What poverty? Men who are women still out earn cunty women, when you send out a questionnaire and shit loads of"women" are earning tons of money, suddenly there is no poverty or much less, governments can congratulate themselves on a job well done, with no money going to the women who really need it.

Everything that effects women will disappear. Statistics will tell us that women are doing just fine, nothing extra needed.

We will even excel in sports.

Our lives hinge on being a separate class of people who need certain things, dignity, privacy and a few spaces where men cannot enter among other things Once we have lost these, it will be am epic battle to regain them.
Imagine you need an operation, you certain your ok with men on the same ward?

Imagine you go to prison for wrong think or maybe hateful haberdashery or as is currently in the news, protesting. You really sure you want to be locked up with men. Not just one man, many men.

Less dramatic, your daughter joins the local running team*, is good at it, could go further, loves it, its given her a sense of belonging, a sense of team, a freedom. She will never get anywhere. She will never win, she will never go further. She wont keep going, she has lost a hobby that meant so much. In reality she will never even join the team, because all us women know, theres no point. Look at every record of sports since we began recording them. In almost every sport, womens records never get close to mens records. The fastest woman, will never outrun the fastest man,

*pick your sport.

In every scenario currently it's one man, isla, Jessica, rachel/veronica, laurel, lia, Emily, caster, CeCe, Lauren, Fallon's, andraya,

In reality it would be many men. Who wouldnt want to go down in the history books for being the best in their sport? It's an easy win and requires no change, and as men, with men, they aren't winning. So sports would boil down to men and other men. I'm not sure women would even bother trying to rescue sports for themselves, it's too easy for men to take over.
What prisoner wouldn't like an easier time in the womens prison?
What man wouldnt prefer to be in the womens ward? Safer innit.

Great post.

ResisterRex · 11/02/2023 15:52

Tories haven't totally won my vote yet but they're a better bet than Labour who want to remove our rights and dismantle safeguarding vulnerable adults and children.

Once those things are gone, it could take a century to get them back. Other policies that are bad, can be more easily undone. Or defeated in the Lords. We have the bare threads of what's necessary as it is. I'm not giving any ground on any of it. We need more, not less of these things.

We need the guarantee of single sex spaces. We need much better safeguarding to stop the current loopholes in DBS checking re self-ID.

If the Tories don't stop the madness then I'll spoil my ballot. If they do, I will vote for them.

EpicChaos · 11/02/2023 16:12

I will not be voting for any candidate, or any party, that centres men when talking about womens' issues!
If need be, i'll just not vote - you have to be very careful when spoiling ballots cos even a splash of ink in a box will count as a vote, so just best not to vote at all and to make it abundantly clear to doorknockers and leafleters exactly why they won't be gettiong your vote.
If you'd ordinarily be one of those out knocking on doors and/or dropping leaflets, refuse to do so, is my advice.

Floisme · 11/02/2023 16:32

It's fascinating how there isn't the slightest attempt made to actually sell it to women, is there? The very best they can manage is 'where's the harm / why don't you want to be nice?'

As for voting, I'm hoping for an independent candidate with a spine and half a brain. We usually have a couple and I'll be checking them out even if Labour salvage something from this car crash. The clue is in the name.

suggestionsplease1 · 11/02/2023 16:43

Thelnebriati · 11/02/2023 12:25

@suggestionsplease1 I think we are using different definitions of 'women's rights'.
Women have been asking for more equality and a less gendered society for decades; suddenly the goalposts are moved and everything becomes possible.
Somehow the fact that women are erased as a sex class is not considered an issue.

If you look at the big picture according to best available evidence, improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.

That is the reality. That is the uncomfortable fact for people on FWR.

People can point out anecdotes all they like, the reliable and robust big picture statistical evidence is that improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.

People entrenched on both sides view this as a zero-sum game. They could not be more wrong.

Thelnebriati · 11/02/2023 16:46

If you look at the big picture according to best available evidence, improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.
That is the reality.

No it isn't reality, its an opinion.
Sexed facilities are provided on the basis of sex, not gender identity. That's a fact. Mixed sex facilities are more dangerous for women than single sex, that is also a fact.

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/02/2023 16:47

How can evidence be the best available when self ID records mens crimes as women’s?

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 11/02/2023 16:49

suggestionsplease1 · 11/02/2023 16:43

If you look at the big picture according to best available evidence, improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.

That is the reality. That is the uncomfortable fact for people on FWR.

People can point out anecdotes all they like, the reliable and robust big picture statistical evidence is that improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.

People entrenched on both sides view this as a zero-sum game. They could not be more wrong.

Nah, it's really not.
But, well you brought this up.
What has got better about womens lives recently?

EpicChaos · 11/02/2023 16:59

@suggestionsplease1 " improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives. "

!!!!!

Oh yes, i can definitely see the enrichment of a womans life, who has been forced to share a cell with a man found guilty of stalking a 13 year old girl and who has already killed one man and who is more than capable of committing serious, violent crimes against any woman sharing a cell with him.
Yes, very enriching that!
Feck off! Feck right off!!!

SinnerBoy · 11/02/2023 17:02

suggestionsplease1 · Today 16:43

If you look at the big picture according to best available evidence, improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.

Really? Are you sure that women and young girls having to experience men exposing themselves in changing rooms is an improvement? Or being locked in prison with violent rapists? How has that improved their rights? Or having to give way and lose out in sports?

Please, I'm sure that you can provide us with some supporting information, from some reputable sources. I.e not Penis Views.

borntobequiet · 11/02/2023 17:28

If you look at the big picture according to best available evidence, improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.

I have no idea what that’s supposed to mean. What big picture? Refrigerators and washing machines were probably the biggest improvements in women’s lives IMO.

pattihews · 11/02/2023 18:12

People can point out anecdotes all they like, the reliable and robust big picture statistical evidence is that improvements in trans rights go hand in hand with improvements in women's lives.

Show your evidence to support this. If you can't/ won't/ don't you'll confirm you're lying.

OldCrone · 11/02/2023 18:16

suggestionsplease1 · 11/02/2023 11:43

@Cantthinkofabetternameforhere

" I understand a lot of your points made and in theory I agree, how can I disagree with the theory that swathes of women will be abused by men dressed as women! but in reality from other countries with self ID does an increase in harm to women actually happen?"

In a word, no.

In fact there is a strong correlation with the countries who are strongest on trans rights also being the strongest on women's rights / making most headway on closing the gender gap.

See the global gender gap index 2022

www.statista.com/statistics/244387/the-global-gender-gap-index/

It's been pointed out to you before that some of the countries with self-ID have the worst records on women's rights.

For example Malta was one of the first European countries to introduce gender self-id, but Malta also has a total ban on abortion, including in cases of rape or incest.

Ireland introduced gender self-ID before legalising abortion.

Some South American countries also have self-id as well as a near total ban on abortion.

It's almost as though gender self-ID is a men's rights movement which goes hand-in-hand with the removal of women's rights.

borntobequiet · 11/02/2023 18:38

And vacuum cleaners.

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