Keir Starmer confirms Labour will push ahead with self ID (7th Feb 2023)

[Thelnebriati]

Despite everything that has happened over the past few days;

Ben Bradshaw
''A warm welcome for @ Keir_Starmer as he recommits to reforming the UK’s out of date gender recognition process at tonight’s @ LGBTLabour @ LGBTHM
reception in Parliament''

twitter.com/BenPBradshaw/status/1623032232284721189

Slothtoes!· Today 09:08

I agree, it’s a bit like Brexit, it can be hard for people to admit to a u-turn if they really got on board with something publicly and it then turns out to have been a terrible idea sold to them by con artists.

He could come out with something along the lines of:

"Oh? Rapists in women's prisons? Ooh, nobody had even thought of that, that will never happen here."

Even though millions predicted and there widely reported cases in England... A lot of people would think, "Hmm, I never knew about that, sounds OK, no "Islas" in our jail's," and take him at his word.

Teeth gritting, but a (dishonest) way out with a back pedal.

Maybe the lack of options for women is a way to get women to take away their vote themselves. What better way than self censorship - we need a woman’s party

Governments do not like to be perceived as lacking legitimacy, or if you prefer a mandate. Very few British governments have the legitimacy they like to claim since most dont get 50% of the votes.

I'd vote for a women's party but we probably need revolution rather than a new party and women dont generally start revolutions.

Starmer and his sad, stupid cronies can gtf as far as I am concerned. I am no fan of the Tories and used to vote Labour until Corbyn came along but I will NEVER vote for them again. I am amazed that any woman would vote for them tbh.

Yes but look how the WEP turned out...ridiculous dick pandering all round.

A GRC just means people get a new birth certificate which means they get married and have death cert in changed gender.

What is getting married in a gender?

Marriage certificates don’t state sex.

As for death certificates, sex should be recorded, as it is also recorded at birth (regardless of GRC), for statistical reasons if nothing else. I can understand why somebody might want a ‘short form’ death certificate, similar to a short form birth certificate, but it’s not clear why that can’t be made available.

Law and policy on gender recognition are a mess already. Self ID just reinforces the mess. The fundamental reason for the mess is that it is not possible to change sex and nobody can explain what gender identity is. Meanwhile it is still necessary to record and recognise sex for some purposes.

This is an interesting thread. @BellaAmorosa I didn't know that about the EA, I was sure that even with a GRC trans people could be excluded from single sex spaces (which I think is right).

In the marriage ceremony gendered language is used so people want a GRC for that.

Another genuine Q - some of you would not vote labour because of this issue even though another Tory govt would do so much more harm to women? Through economic and other social policies - increase of DV for example, lack of access to healthcare, lack of childcare means cycles of poverty continue

I understand a lot of your points made and in theory I agree, how can I disagree with the theory that swathes of women will be abused by men dressed as women! but in reality from other countries with self ID does an increase in harm to women actually happen?

I'm torn because on the one hand even if you cant change your sex but someone is trans and just wants to live their life in peace then why not make it as easy as possible. On the other hand I do agree that biological men in a woman's space isn't right most of the time. Surely more can be done on this issue or amends to the EA that explicitly just say that by default trans women cannot go in cis women's spaces. And an alternate should be provided. Maybe this is what Starmer means, although who knows.

I feel like there could be solutions to this that protect everyone without fighting or 'culture war'. Or an all or nothing approach.

The harm to women with current gov policies though negatively affect women far more than this though. Surely?

I hardly think Starmers labour are the panacea of good policy but they are the lesser of two evils.

Perhaps everyone should vote Lib Dem or Green or something.

Another genuine Q - some of you would not vote labour because of this issue even though another Tory govt would do so much more harm to women? Through economic and other social policies - increase of DV for example, lack of access to healthcare, lack of childcare means cycles of poverty continue
Of course we have thought about it. Why do you think we're so fucking angry?

All a bit of a shit show isn't it. Politics in this country

Of course I've fucking thought about it. That's why I'm so fucking angry with Labour. This is an existential crisis for women's rights. Not a fucking disagreement over whether we should paint our pillar boxes orange.

some of you would not vote labour because of this issue even though another Tory govt would do so much more harm to women?

I wouldn't vote Tory, but no other party is owed my vote.

Labour doesn’t look like the answer to me on a number of levels anyway so it’s easier to not be able to stand them as an option

Corbyn was a huge disappointment so half the work was done and now Starmer - whom I did think could be ok - has finished off any reliance

@Cantthinkofabetternameforhere You ask (my bold) "I understand a lot of your points made and in theory I agree, how can I disagree with the theory that swathes of women will be abused by men dressed as women! but in reality from other countries with self ID does an increase in harm to women actually happen?"

We don't know, because the data is often not collected in these countries, almost certainly because that would undermine the genderists' case.

You could take a look at this thread for a start www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4700477-no-evidence-to-suggest-abuse-of-self-id

Also the various "It will never happen" threads.

In the marriage ceremony gendered language is used so people want a GRC for that.

So allow alternatives in the marriage ceremony. Presumably the language also excludes non binary people. It’s not as though ‘love honour and obey’ is forced on anyone. Sex is not relevant to marriage any more, so if mentioning it is upsetting, allow options that don’t. Instead a GRC makes it harder to legally and practically recognise sex where it IS relevant. Can you not see how ridiculous that is?

Another genuine Q - some of you would not vote labour because of this issue even though another Tory govt would do so much more harm to women? Through economic and other social policies - increase of DV for example, lack of access to healthcare, lack of childcare means cycles of poverty continue

Can’t do anything about any of that if you can’t define women. Legislation, rights and policy depend on clarity.

but in reality from other countries with self ID does an increase in harm to women actually happen?

Yes self ID policies are used to harm women - Google Jessica, beautician Canada; WI spa. Does this make a difference? Difficult to tell without access to data - how many E.g. flashers are reported anyway? What do you report if somebody is legally using a changing room?

Are women’s rights harmed in Argentina and Malta? I don’t know - do these countries have particularly strong records on women’s rights anyway - Malta is one of the few countries where abortion is banned for all reasons.

But just look at the behaviour of Isla Bryson and the number of women he tried to access - at the college, at the self defence class. The college eventually got rid of him and the defence class wouldn’t accept him, but it’s clear that he used self ID policy as a method in itself to control and abuse others. He turned up at his rape trial showcasing his genitals, but his victims had to refer to him as a woman.

If he had a GRC it would have made it more difficult to say ‘We are just treating you like any other man’.
The comparator for the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is somebody of the same sex who does not have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, not somebody of the opposite sex.

@Merrymouse You say "The comparator for the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is somebody of the same sex who does not have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, not somebody of the opposite sex."

Are there any authoritative sources for this where an individual has a GRC? (I would be so relieved if there were.)

This blog by the barrister Anya Palmer on the Legal Feminist website, dated 7th August, deals with comparators. 2022https://www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2022/08/07/false-equivalence-a-guest-blog-by-barrister-anya-palmer/

It goes into detail, but one paragraph reads "In short: the correct comparator for a trans-identified male who does not have a GRC, and is claiming gender reassignment discrimination, is a male who does not identify as trans."

So Anya Palmer is evidently of the opinion that having a GRC does make a difference to the comparator to be used.

As I say, I would be greatly relieved to see an authoritative source saying that a GRC makes no difference. Does the EHRC have anything to say on the matter?

@Chersfrozenface
Anya Palmer's blog was written before Lady Haldane's recent judgment in the Scottish courts in which she ruled that "sex" in the Equality Act 2010 means legal sex as well as biological sex because the EA 2010 did not specifically say "biological sex". Therefore the 2004 GRA, which says that obtaining a GRC changes a person's legal sex "for all purposes" includes the purpose of the operation of the EA and therefore, that a male holding a GRC is female for the operation of that Act. Consequently, the comparator in a gender reassignment discrimination claim for a male with a GRC (or a legally female person) is a woman without a GRC.

This ruling has some bizarre and unwelcome consequences but those points were argued before the judge and she decided that that was the correct interpretation of the interaction of the two laws - that males holding a GRC are female for the operation of the EA2010.
Michael Foran's twitter thread has a proper explanation.

We need the petition about clarifying the meaning of "sex* in the EA2010 to get to 100,000 signatures so that we can get a debate in Parliament.

And I haven't seen any public comment from the EHRC.

The EHRC said this about single sex spaces but don't think they've said anything else www.theguardian.com/society/2022/apr/04/trans-people-can-be-excluded-single-sex-services-if-justifiable-says-ehrc

Before it is too late please sign this petition to update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic ‘sex ‘ means biological sex, not sex as modified by a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Look on the petition map to see how England, Wales and Northern Ireland have been asleep on this issue compared to Scotland.

When asked about what a woman is m, Kier Starmer said that for 99.9% of women it is about biology.

He definitely wants the 0.1% of 30 million people whom he calls calls women [for whom it is not about biology,]

• and the numbers will

multiply with self-ID - in women’s rape crisis centres, refuges, hospital wards, giving intimate care to disabled women and girls, in prisons, changing rooms and lavatories, girl guides, children’s dormitories,

n.b Many men identifying as women have intact genitalia. Getting a GRC does not require surgery.

Males with gender reassignment, even with surgery, have the same violent crime offending patterns as all other men.

To sign and share the petition to Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic ‘sex’ is biological sex, not sex as modified by a GRC
⬇️
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243
✍️ & 📣📣📣📣📣

@Cantthinkofabetternameforhere

" I understand a lot of your points made and in theory I agree, how can I disagree with the theory that swathes of women will be abused by men dressed as women! but in reality from other countries with self ID does an increase in harm to women actually happen?"

In a word, no.

In fact there is a strong correlation with the countries who are strongest on trans rights also being the strongest on women's rights / making most headway on closing the gender gap.

See the global gender gap index 2022

www.statista.com/statistics/244387/the-global-gender-gap-index/

Plus proportional represention?

It’s impossible to know if harm against women has increased in counties with self ID because - guess what!! In those counties if a man commits a crime and self IDs as a woman then the crime is recorded as being committed by a woman. That is a feature not a bug of self ID

also as has been pointed out on here a gazillion times, it’s not just about crime it’s about our right to dignity, privacy and our own single sex spaces away from men however they present! Not to mention women from faiths and cultures where mixed sex spaces are not acceptable

if a TW started to show up in the women’s changing rooms of my local pool, I would stop going. Not because they’re a TW but because they’re a man. Where would that be recorded? Nowhere

and this is fucking obvious to anyone with half a brain - starmer knows all this, he’s just more afraid of the massed ranks of TRA in his party than he is of women

but in reality from other countries with self ID does an increase in harm to women actually happen?"

In a word, no.

Are you saying that whether man X commits a crime as a man, or gets GRC and commits it as a ‘woman’, the crime statistics would stay the same?

Or, that there is a suggestion that certain extra crimes will become possible on an opportunistic basis by Man X and others like him masquerading as women?

What record is being kept in those countries about every crime committed against women and girls to show whether such crimes have gone up or not, or on what basis in relation to ‘gender’?
Please would you link some if possible?

One important thing to be aware of is that a man who says he is a woman commits a crime in those countries, it is not recorded as being by a man.

Important statistics and records related to this issue are completely missing.

At the moment in Scotland a man has been arrested for kidnapping a girl of 11. To suit
NS perhaps It is not being widely reported that he has also been living as a woman. (S)he is well known because of having a butchers shop. I wonder if any record will ever show this, or it will be buried to keep up the idea that trans women are different from other men and cannot commit crimes?

This is a general picture.
This Never Happens - by JL - The Glinner Update

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens?utm_campaign=post_embed

Yes, to dignity and privacy. How dare Kier Starmer remove my rights to it.

How dare Kier Starmer compound the astoundingly dreadful mistakes in the laws around gender already made, by bringing in self-ID.

I'd vote for a women's party but we probably need revolution rather than a new party and women dont generally start revolutions.

The Russian Revolution started with women protesting about bread shortages.