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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

1000 replies

IwantToRetire · 04/02/2023 21:40

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BernardBlacksMolluscs · 05/02/2023 20:33

It's alliteration so it must be good! seal of quality that

it's ever so clever really

IwantToRetire · 05/02/2023 20:40

oh dear, another thread derail.

I dont understand how it is acceptable to criticise the way others write based on the narrow set of beliefs you have.

Just because some right wing papers use "woke" in an anti left way, doesn't mean that others who have contempt for the peformative narrow knee jerk short hand of key board warriors that is now the general perception of being woke, doesn't mean we are denied the right to how we think. Its that same of left arguement, we have failed you, but dont ever say that or suggest it.

And the problem with what some call the Head Girls but I see as Antifa's Aunt Lydia, is that if they were less partonising to other women, and actually did a bit more grass roots feminism, they might be listened to.

It is perhaps not a surprise that I got the info about this edition being free online from the group Actual Gender Critical Left. Who as we all now know after the FiLia fiasco where they thought we are all so dim we wont work out the manipulations, have now entrenched themselves in WPUK.

I usually visit AGCL once a week, just for a good laugh, and meant to post a link where they were sadly reflecting on how they hadn't really made an impact on others, and suggested amongst other things that maybe it was too hard a topic for women to understand the link between feminism and socialism. Never once did the reflect on their appallingly arrogant behaviour to other women. Many have joined, and make a comment or asking a questionn and then get told if you have to ask that quesiton you shouldn't be in the group, didn't you read the introductory notes.

This isn't about whether being left is the correct thing.

This is about the sheer dumb stupidity of thinking if you sneer and talk down to other women, they stop listening to you.

And yes you can accuse KJK of being a populist but so long as she is the only one, or one of very few, who is actually doing something she will always have greater sway.

Feminsim is about women's real lives. It is about the impact of entrenched sexism on our lives.

Feminism isn't some dinner party talking point or publication in obscure, unknown academic journals.

This self absorbed irrelevance (probably only matched by media feminism where the women that men choose then get to write total nonsense which is published as being feminism) has no impact on women's lives.

But also this style of writing is used to disguise what is little more that school girl bullying of those who dont fit in the tiny perception of what are the "correct" thoughts.

If you cant organise to campaign for women's rights and then try to justify it by saying the wrong sort of women are campaigning, I think we can all work out why women's rights are being eaten away.

Just look at Scotland. That should be the wake up call to all of us.

There is nothing to stop women organising in the way they think is best, but if their only contribution is to focus on the women who are achieving something and point out how incorrect they are, then it is clear the priority isn't furthering women.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 05/02/2023 20:41

Sorry, I allowed myself to be derailed.

But suspect as suggested up thread, that the decision to make this edition free (published last year) was an attempt to draw attention away from or criticism to the sucess of SfW.

OP posts:
Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 20:43

WinterDeWinter · 05/02/2023 19:31

Trump was mentioned upthread in relation to the 'casual monstering' of the poor lad. 'Woke' was a general comment - I've seen it all across MN Feminism over the last couple of months since I've been reading again.

I agree. It's like everyone forgets the groundswell of the original Women's March (not the subsequent bastardized version that came later) was created in response to Trump winning the presidency. I can't believe anyone would look to US MAGA man as pro-woman. We lost abortion rights because of him!!!

ArabellaScott · 05/02/2023 20:45

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 05/02/2023 20:20

contempt

thank you @MrsOvertonsWindow , it was the word I was looking for when skimming those articles, and the thing that dripped off @WinterDeWinter 's posts. couldn't put my finger on it

utter contempt.

Fuck that.

Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 20:46

WinterDeWinter · 05/02/2023 19:50

And the idea that Trump is where he is because of Hillary's deplorables comment is also <gnnnnn> somewhat lacking nuance.

Exactly. Her comment was intended to convey her belief that most conservatives are good people but that some of them were voting for Trump because they were deplorable racists/misogynists. But the comment didn't land.

Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 20:54

Regardless, thanks for noting this publication. I'll give it a read. The topic on the myth of the hijab as female empowerment is interesting to me because I follow the journalist, Masih Alinejad.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/02/2023 20:54

Your derail was interesting IWantToRetire. I liked this:

If you cant organise to campaign for women's rights and then try to justify it by saying the wrong sort of women are campaigning, I think we can all work out why women's rights are being eaten away.

After such an important week when there's been a huge shift in public opinion thanks to posters threatening to decapitate women, MPs cosying up to murderers & Nicola's TWAW position displaying the grim reality of transactivism, it's sad to see a few seemingly jealous women whingeing at considerable length about successful women campaigners.

IwantToRetire · 05/02/2023 20:57

Want to say more, but off to watch the finale of Happy Valley. Believe it or not someone (a woman) wrote an article to say how unfair it was that Sally Wainwright had made all the men so horrible or useless.

Sorry for an actual derail!

OP posts:
WinterDeWinter · 05/02/2023 21:12

You really think KJK owes her activism to Nigel Farage?
Not at all. Im talking about women on here.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 05/02/2023 21:17

Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 20:46

Exactly. Her comment was intended to convey her belief that most conservatives are good people but that some of them were voting for Trump because they were deplorable racists/misogynists. But the comment didn't land.

I believe you're in the US, and I am not, and one thing I've learned recently is how very, very different the US and the UK are, so this i hedged with caveats, but....it feels like left wingers don't really stop to ask themselves why people voted for Trump. they just said 'well the only reason people would vote for US MAGA man is if they're racists or misogynists or other wise bad people'

they missed the point that there were too many people who felt they had nothing to lose. I would think many of the people who voted for Trump thought he was awful. but they also thought he was different, and the status quo was giving them less than nothing, so they may as well see what he would do.

when you write people off as 'farage feminists' or 'deplorables', you reduce both them and yourself, and you blind yourself to what's really going on

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 05/02/2023 21:19

WinterDeWinter · 05/02/2023 21:12

You really think KJK owes her activism to Nigel Farage?
Not at all. Im talking about women on here.

hope you enjoyed your dinner

have we got to the bottom of why it's OK for you to use 'la-la-la-can'thearyou throwdowns' but v.v.v. bad when others do it yet?

Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 21:23

@BernardBlacksMolluscs if you bothered to read what I wrote much of it is what you suggest I do. Hillary Clinton was using the deplorables argument to say exactly this: most conservatives are trying to do the right thing. It's a basket (meaning small #) who ARE deplorable.

I will always point out on FWR how Trump hurt women. If someone is sad that Trump is "monstered" I really don't fucking care.

I don't know who Farage is.

CampervanKween · 05/02/2023 21:24

I think I'll pass. I like down to earth women's rights activism for normal women. I've been patronised in my time by elitist feminists. Once I got mocked for having a handbag. Apparently I was conforming to the patriarchy. I just find it useful to carry stuff in, and in fact my patriarch (dh) is always losing things because he hasn't got one so who looks stupid now 😄

EndlessTea · 05/02/2023 21:26

beastlyslumber · 05/02/2023 20:12

No, you read it that way and you use "minorities" as a shield to hide behind and people to talk over. It's that kind of patronising attitude that shows you up for who you really are.

Oh yes, "dinner is ready". It's your arse, on a plate. Bon appetit.

Oh yes, "dinner is ready". It's your arse, on a plate. Bon appetit.

😂🤣

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 05/02/2023 21:28

Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 21:23

@BernardBlacksMolluscs if you bothered to read what I wrote much of it is what you suggest I do. Hillary Clinton was using the deplorables argument to say exactly this: most conservatives are trying to do the right thing. It's a basket (meaning small #) who ARE deplorable.

I will always point out on FWR how Trump hurt women. If someone is sad that Trump is "monstered" I really don't fucking care.

I don't know who Farage is.

you seem to have taken what was intended as discussion as criticism. you are of course completely at liberty to give your views on Trump at any and all opportunities (and I don't think I implied otherwise?)

beastlyslumber · 05/02/2023 21:30

WinterDeWinter · 05/02/2023 21:12

You really think KJK owes her activism to Nigel Farage?
Not at all. Im talking about women on here.

You think women on FWR owe Nigel Farage for our activism?

What the fuck. That doesn't even make sense.

EndlessTea · 05/02/2023 21:37

I think ‘Farage Feminism’ is something happily coined inside a clique which doesn’t make sense to anyone outside it. If you casually slip it into a thread without anyone noticing , it makes it sound like it’s actually a thing, and it will become adopted.

Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 21:38

This is a derail, but it's in the spirit of women's rights.

Hillary Clinton's deplorables comment was one of the most poorly misconstrued remarks in her career. The absolute viciousness in the attacks against her from
the right AND the Bernie Bros on the left was unprecedented for a presidential candidate. It was misogyny on a grand scale. Prior to her remark, Trump had mocked a disabled journalist, bragged about sexual assault and made numerous racist remarks about immigrants being racists. Hillary's point was she KNEW most conservatives were not filled with hate but a small amount were motivated to vote for Trump because he gave legitimacy to the ugliest of grievances. Hence, they were a mere "basket of deplorables."

It's old news but I'm sick of Hillary getting smeared in a feminism forum

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 05/02/2023 21:39

EndlessTea · 05/02/2023 21:37

I think ‘Farage Feminism’ is something happily coined inside a clique which doesn’t make sense to anyone outside it. If you casually slip it into a thread without anyone noticing , it makes it sound like it’s actually a thing, and it will become adopted.

Ive got no clue…

beastlyslumber · 05/02/2023 21:44

EndlessTea · 05/02/2023 21:37

I think ‘Farage Feminism’ is something happily coined inside a clique which doesn’t make sense to anyone outside it. If you casually slip it into a thread without anyone noticing , it makes it sound like it’s actually a thing, and it will become adopted.

It's definitely not a thing. It makes no sense!

Shame about their magazine but if this is the quality of the "discourse" it's no surprise no one wants to read it.

GrinitchSpinach · 05/02/2023 21:48

Delphinium20 · 05/02/2023 21:38

This is a derail, but it's in the spirit of women's rights.

Hillary Clinton's deplorables comment was one of the most poorly misconstrued remarks in her career. The absolute viciousness in the attacks against her from
the right AND the Bernie Bros on the left was unprecedented for a presidential candidate. It was misogyny on a grand scale. Prior to her remark, Trump had mocked a disabled journalist, bragged about sexual assault and made numerous racist remarks about immigrants being racists. Hillary's point was she KNEW most conservatives were not filled with hate but a small amount were motivated to vote for Trump because he gave legitimacy to the ugliest of grievances. Hence, they were a mere "basket of deplorables."

It's old news but I'm sick of Hillary getting smeared in a feminism forum

Delph, I think you and I have disagreed on several past threads about US feminist tactics (I am American, too) but I agree with this post of yours and wanted to note it.

Clinton was absolutely not saying that only a ‘deplorable’ would consider voting for Trump.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 05/02/2023 21:51

beastlyslumber · 05/02/2023 21:30

You think women on FWR owe Nigel Farage for our activism?

What the fuck. That doesn't even make sense.

This poster is all over the place, constant self contradictions.

Called US Mumsnetters head girls and is now DARVOing all over after I pointed out that it’s not Mumsnetters who are the self appointed Head Girls of Feminism.

(We’re the ‘Domesticated Zombies’, as any fule knos)

It’s mostly on the Brendan O’Neill of Spiked thread.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 05/02/2023 21:51

GrinitchSpinach · 05/02/2023 21:48

Delph, I think you and I have disagreed on several past threads about US feminist tactics (I am American, too) but I agree with this post of yours and wanted to note it.

Clinton was absolutely not saying that only a ‘deplorable’ would consider voting for Trump.

duly noted from both of you. as I mentioned, I'm coming from a position of profound ignorance on the subject of US politics, so it's good to hear from people who know the deal

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 05/02/2023 21:56

CampervanKween · 05/02/2023 21:24

I think I'll pass. I like down to earth women's rights activism for normal women. I've been patronised in my time by elitist feminists. Once I got mocked for having a handbag. Apparently I was conforming to the patriarchy. I just find it useful to carry stuff in, and in fact my patriarch (dh) is always losing things because he hasn't got one so who looks stupid now 😄

WTF?

I’m now imagining it was said like this:

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