Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

[IwantToRetire]

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

@WinterDeWinter I think people are reacting with some puzzlement because you were the first person to use the terms 'woke' or 'purity spiral' in the thread in the lengthy finger wagging post you chose to open with, which started Blimey. I'm astounded at how right wing this place has become.

it really felt like you were in a different conversation

Exactly. Woke means authoritarian. Bully. One who uses the language of social justice to oppress minorities.

and as for Farage feminism

any more sneering you feel like today? c'mon, you must have more in the bag

Well you know what they say about two wrongs.

Two wrongs? What other example of "vindictiveness" are you referring to?

right wing people are inherently evil, the end, no need to explain. do keep up @DarkDayforMN

So much to unpick here but I'll focus on these because dinner's ready.

Why do you think right wing is synonymous with bigot?
See my comment above re what is, whether you like it or not, included in the word 'woke'.

Why are you writing long essays about how shit we all are? It's tiresome.
Sorry I'm tiresoming you, but I don't care if you are tiresomed.
'Essays' speaks to my Farage feminism point.

PS most people - genuinely most normal people from left to centre-right - think Trump is a psychopath. Why are you concerned that he might be being unfairly demonised? Let it go. Unless you are campaigning for psychopaths to be less demonised.

And the idea that Trump is where he is because of Hillary's deplorables comment is also somewhat lacking nuance.

Are you familiar with the verb form "might"? It's used to express possibility and uncertainty. There's an example of it in the post you're responding to.

@BernardBlacksMolluscs I think people are reacting with some puzzlement because you were the first person to use the terms 'woke' or 'purity spiral' in the thread

Mine is a general point about the dominant narrative on MN Feminism - it's quite clear if you read my OP.

Two wrongs? What other example of "vindictiveness" are you referring to?

I think you have not understood the meaning of this expression - it means 'poor behaviour on one side does not mean that poor behaviour on the other side is acceptable.

any more sneering you feel like today? c'mon, you must have more in the bag

You need to let go, Bernard, of the idea that someone who disagrees with you is sneering at you. It might feel like that - therapy can help - but debate is one of the things that we, the gender critical, are all supposed to prize.

Woke means authoritarian. Bully. One who uses the language of social justice to oppress minorities.

It definitely doesn't mean this to a large section of the minorities in question @beastlyslumber . They read it as contempt for the idea that minorities might have a grievance.

You haven't "unpicked" anything @WinterDeWinter and you haven't answered any of my questions. You've added a whole lot more bullshit, though. Where did I say I was worried that Trump is being demonised? Do you struggle with nuance generally? Or is that another thing you don't care about?

Do you want to try again? Because that response was very weak. I'm sure you can do better.

Dinner really is ready now. Thanks for listening.

I also can't be alone in cringing when I hear posters using 'woke'. You must have considered whether that word doesn't only weep aside 'progressive' postmodernism and the attempted destruction of material reality as a basis for, well, everything - but also he fact that certain groups, including women, are still at a shameful disadvantage in our society. You do sound like bigots when you use it. Like racist bigots, to be specific. There are other ways to express what you mean if you don't want to be thought of as that.

I find people who cringe on behalf of others very interesting. as if the behaviour of others who literally don't know or care about them reflects on them. and lecturing readers as a single group, using 'you'. seeming inability to understand that there are many individuals contributing. like I say, interesting.

'Purity spiral', 'woke' - these are the la-la-la-can'thearyou throwdowns for a particular kind of populist conservativism. On another thread, I was accused of elitism and head girl feminism for - I think, I still can't really work it out - using sentences which sounded vaguely like they could be used in an essay? I am not an academic or an intellectual - but I'm really disturbed by the fact that these words are used as slurs here now. This is Farage feminism.*

using a trite phrase like 'farage feminism' isn't a la-la-la-can'thearyou throwdown ? are you sure? certainly seems like one to me. Oh no, you're doing it too @WinterDeWinter ! can you wag your finger at yourself? looks like you might deserve it...

No, you read it that way and you use "minorities" as a shield to hide behind and people to talk over. It's that kind of patronising attitude that shows you up for who you really are.

Oh yes, "dinner is ready". It's your arse, on a plate. Bon appetit.

Mine is a general point about the dominant narrative on MN Feminism - it's quite clear if you read my OP.

do you generally come into a conversation where people are talking among themselves about thing A and deliver a lengthy lecture about thing B? How does that go for you?

You need to let go, Bernard, of the idea that someone who disagrees with you is sneering at you. It might feel like that - therapy can help - but debate is one of the things that we, the gender critical, are all supposed to prize.

name calling isn't debate. implying people need therapy isn't debate. your lovely phrase 'farage feminism' is sneering. when you're ready come and see if you can do some debating.

poor behaviour on one side does not mean that poor behaviour on the other side is acceptable. on the other side is acceptable.

That's so unarguable that in fact no one was arguing about it, except apparently you. Excuse me for getting in the way of your debate with yourself. Can you not do it in a response to my comments though? It's confusing.

Hmmm. So women on Mumsnet are right wing if we fail to genuflect deeply enough to a group of "intellectual" women openly displaying their contempt for other activist women?

“Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore"
Andrea Dworkin's analysis has far more to offer the sisterhood than any of these sneering anti women posts from WinterDeWinter.

I wonder why someone wanted to derail a conversation about a particularly poor free copy of a subscription magazine?

contempt

thank you @MrsOvertonsWindow , it was the word I was looking for when skimming those articles, and the thing that dripped off @WinterDeWinter 's posts. couldn't put my finger on it

Back in the annals of FWR there used to be another tiresome poster who claimed to be a woman, posted lengthy word salad posts full of accusations & often retreated to bake or ice a cake when they couldn't defend their accusations / ramblings. 😂

Indeed.

"on behalf of" all women, even the ones we don't like is the critical phrase @MrsOvertonsWindow .

That quote doesn't mean what you think it means - feminists do not have to pretend that those women are not conservatives, or bigots, or whatever. What they do have to do is fight for all women, even the ones whose world view we dislike.

Once again, disagreeing is not 'sneering' unless you are Farage or a Farage feminist.

Pleasure Bernard. I'd just been watching the heartwarming scenes from Glasgow of the 6 women and dog who make up this movement & KJK's rapturous welcome in the pub afterwards. And then stumbled on that little poisonous offering.

Course it is.

Once again, disagreeing is not 'sneering' unless you are Farage or a Farage feminist.

you haven't disagreed and you haven't debated. you've just done trite name calling with your fun little phrase

see I have this old fashioned belief that if you believe someone is bad you should be able to say why.

@WinterDeWinter Calling women you dislike "Farage feminists" is misogynistic. You really think KJK owes her activism to Nigel Farage?

You come out with this misogynistic bullshit while lecturing us about what shitty bigots we are? Ugh. Must be tough living with yourself.