Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

[IwantToRetire]

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

I have absolutely no idea what she does or doesn't claim to be.

I do know that the last 10 or so years have made me massively, massively sceptical about the grossly antisemitic characters who have used their Jewishness (either real, fake, or somewhere in between) as a fig leaf to justify their attacks on Jews.

I'm properly Jewish, 100% genetically Jewish, born and raised in the heart of the community in North London. I am so, so familiar with those who 'have Jewish heritage' claiming that as an excuse for attacking us. I am also familiar with those who are, genuinely, completely Jewish, but for whatever reason, want to join up with antisemites (R'vk'h Brown). This is a whole different argument though and I don't want to derail this thread.

I will say for JJ though that she DID refund my money when I asked, and didn't quibble when I explained it was because of her antisemitism.

It means she's a liar and an antisemite. To be honest. I am tired and CBA to make that more tactful.

Also, Gilad Atzmon who she's replying to there IS 100% Jewish and is also one of the most antisemitic people you might ever hope to (not) meet.

Like lots of other things - it's a horrible mess once you get involved.

Some points in response to this and other critical posts:

I've got nothing to do with the people who I think you're referring to as Real Feminists. JCJ, Woman's Place (?? I think). Nothing at all. Not connected with anyone or anything.

Not a socialist.

Have never, ever dissed KJK or anyone else on her 'side' - very much doubt I'd be able to pick anyone from either side out at all by name apart from Jane Clare Jones. I'm aware of the basics of the argument but I've followed from a distance and very intermittently.

I think alliances are very complicated and should probably be judged on a case by case. I've never spoken out in favour of either side, here or elsewhere.

I was here only to point out that, now, anyone who is even slightly further to the left of the dominant clique here is unfairly characterised as a purity-spiralist, which is an accusation that it's nigh on impossible to disprove. If anyone refers to ideas which go beyond the fundamentals of gender criticism, they're shot down as elitist, 'Head Girls', patronising. Or as bullies, even when it's one against many. And that this approach - despite the fact that many of you talk about the importance of a plurality of voices - is edging out liberal voices, and making the board more tribal and homogenous.

I honestly don't think I've used language or a tone that's any more 'academic' or essay-like or complex than many of the people who've responded. I think people who've said I'm talking theory or in an elitist manner are really seeing what they want to see.

That's all!

I think this is all set out pretty well in the Radical notion articles but I'm happy to share their links and references when I'm back on my laptop shortly.
I appreciate that you've been fielding a lot of questions over the last hour but are you going to share any of those links and references before you go?

Haha I now see that things have moved on somewhat 😁

I can't copy and paste from the document. I really like the paragraph under 'Femnism' on page 3 that begins 'feminists understand that resistant to gender identity ideology..' and ends 'feminists are against political alliances with people who are working against women's political interests'

will post more in due course. On page 68 of 102 on my report. I'm not going anywhere though

the dominant clique here is unfairly characterised as a purity-spiralist

Only when I’m actively observing a purity spiral!

I also liked the bit where they discuss Tommy Robinson and his/ Britain First opposition to the grooming gangs who raped young girls in the North of England, and how that was motivated not by concern for the girls, or believing that rape was wrong, but by racism and the defense of Britain as a 'pure' territory whose women/girls belong to white men. That rang very true to me, and highlighted something I've felt very uncomfortable with previously.

I've got nothing to do with the people who I think you're referring to as Real Feminists. JCJ, Woman's Place (?? I think). Nothing at all. Not connected with anyone or anything.

That's what this thread is about, isn't it? People aren't saying you have anything to do with them specifically, they are saying that your preachy tone and appeals to Real Feminism is similar. Beastly and Bernard have certainly got the measure of you, and did indeed hand you your arse, as was pointed out.

Not 100% convinced you're posting in good faith, no. An apology for your initial accusations/mistake would go a long way towards making that clearer, but I'll settle for you actually answering questions.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to give specifics. Surely you know who and what you're talking about? All I'm asking is for you to share that information - even without proof or citations. Just tell us who and what you're talking about.

I agree absolutely and wholeheartedly that all children should be protected (and actually I'd extend it to young people more broadly, although I know that's tricky).

Also, these days, I have as much of a problem identifying myself as 'left wing' as I do 'right wing' (well, maybe not quite as much, but it's not simple).

But I can't agree that we should just ignore our differences with racists. I don't see that the horrors, abuse, prejudice, bigotry and damage of gender ideology are automatically more important than the same things inflicted by racism. And just as I wouldn't want to team up with trans activists to fight racism, so I wouldn't want to team up with racists to fight genderism. Does that make sense?

I completely understand your sensitivity. Those horrors are a blight on our whole species and human history.

However, I think there are degrees. You say “strongly racist/anti semitic views”, and I can’t say I have heard anyone express strong views of those kinds, in this country, for a fair few decades, and of those I have heard, they tended to be expressed by people from ethnic minorities themselves. I think the biggest threat currently in that regard are Islamic extremists, but I certainly haven’t had dinner with anyone like that, to my knowledge.

I suppose what I am wondering is, we’re the racist/antisemitic things you heard strong or implied strong positions?

I think you can be antiabortion due to religious or other ethical reasons and still want women to have the same rights as men and have women's sports and women only prisons.
I am prochoice but the idea all true feminists think women should be able to kill their foetus if they want is a rather odd one to have as a sign of true feminism.
I wouldn't be comfortable aligning myself with people who stand outside abortion clinics and protest or hurl abuse ( most TOPs are done in DGHs in Scotland though) but I don't see believing killing a foetus is wrong as incompatible with feminism or we are saying many women with strong religious beliefs can't possibly be feminists.

I agree with you. What you think is moral is largely an issue of whether you think a foetus is a person, I don't, but I can understand that other people do.

Btw, I know that I may well have a sheltered life.

Wow, that was a fast deletion 🙄

OK, you don't have to believe I'm posting in good faith. I have a very long history of posting on MN, including but not exclusively in FWR, which you are welcome to search for yourself. I must have posted thousands of times as @BloodAndFire I'm not getting into a personal war.

I've named antisemites on the gc side like Jennifer James, Deborah Fink, Shahrar Ali. And misogynists / homophobes like Taylor Silverman, Matt Walsh, Andy Ngo, etc. The twitter account 'reddit lies' also makes clear the connections there.

I've ALSO said very clearly that I believe there are more antisemites and misogynists on the trans activism 'side'. Which I stand by.

I did not call everyone here 'bigots and fascists', that simply is not true and the post is (I assume) still here for anyone to see. I expressed concern about 'some bedfellows' which is a very different thing.

If you want to call me a liar or a 'bad faith actor' that is up to you. I am not. I have a long history here and you can see for yourself it is all consistent. I'm not running away, and you are free to search my old posts IYCBA. I am also trying to do this while working and looking after multiple children and booking in a loft conversion, etc. But you don't have to believe that either.

What was the gist of it?

Absolutely nothing that deserved reporting or deleting as far as I could see

But I can't agree that we should just ignore our differences with racists.

You don't have to. I understand that people have lines in the sand, where there are clashes with other issues.

It might be that my threshold for what counts as a 'strongly' racist view is different from yours. I can't cope with it at all. I can't sit round a table laughing and 'breaking bread' with people who feel that way. What I think is... probably most of the people who stood back and watched, or half-heartedly joined in, with the Holocaust or the Spanish Inquisition or the Armenian genocide, didn't hold massively strong views to start with. Most people aren't Hitler. But they don't need to be

Ofs @ClearMoth @BloodAndFire

Can you please stop the random name changing.

It's very confusing.
If you have "technical issues" with your tech, then it's up to you to sort it out.

Now.

Otherwise I'm going to report you as a sock puppet poster

I think I only quoted a pp post in agreement (which is still there, not saying it should be deleted) and wrote "yes exactly" or something and it was deleted virtually instantly!

I'm sorry that I inadvertently had the wrong default name selected on my phone.

I'm sorry that I immediately apologised for it and clarified that I was the same poster every time, and never misled anyone or tried to pretend I was a different poster. Which I believe is the definition of sock puppeting.

But feel free to report me if it makes you feel good.

What a mess this whole thing has become.

So do I. And I've never tried to tell anyone else what they can or can't do. just to be clear.