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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured

509 replies

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:51

Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Thank you all, so so much for the support you have given me.

I am currently working on the draft of the message I want to send.

Long story short, DD's primary school displays posters by No Outsiders, showing the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Sex as been replaced with gender.

I have raised this with the Head, the assistant Head, and the Deputy Head (DepHead, as DH just doesn't work here). I have been reassured that sex is synonymous with gender in law, and, through an email stream, No Outsiders have reassured the school that it is deliberate, gender is easier to teach children than sex, especially as some will snigger at sex.

Oh, and teaching that gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on.


I'll put the message from the DepHead and No Outsiders here, and also my reply, in its current state.

Thank you all again!

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:58

DepHead email to me



Dear Veb,



Apologies for the delay in getting this to you.



I have contacted the company that has supplied us with the No Outsiders poster.




I have copied parts of our communication for your information - I hope that answers your queries.



We have discussed this further with SLT and they are all now aware of the reasons for the changes in language that you queried.



Any further questions or if you'd like to discuss this further please do not hesitate to contact me again.



Many thanks for your time and support,



DepHead

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:00

DepHead message to No Outsiders

Hello,

We proudly have the No Outsiders plaques and the posters around our federation of two schools.

A parent has commented that one of the pictures says 'gender' rather than 'sex' and all of the other 8 words are identical to the protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010.

Can you help me to explain this to them?

I have said that the poster doesn't actually say these are protected characteristics or mention the law but is more of a 'all are welcome here' showing our inclusive and diversity ethos and culture.

The parent is actually a secondary teacher and is expecting Ofsted any moment and was being helpful rather than critical that 'gender' might be political and all the latest guidance and statutory information is that it should be 'sex' rather than 'gender'.


We also had a discussion as SLT around the 'gender reassignment' characteristic and that it was our understanding that this had increased with more recent legal cases to include gender expression and gender identity. We also wondered whether the word 'sex' has other connotations and the main audience in schools for the posters is children.


I would be very grateful for any response so I can communicate this with the parent and any other visitors!

Many thanks for your support and help with this

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:02

No Outsiders message to the DepHead

Hi,

I do use the term gender rather than sex in primary schools. This is for two reasons:

I think the term sex muddies the issue. It means something else and young children can read it and think it’s funny. I also don’t want Y2 children going home saying “We learned about sex today” when they actually really talked about gender.
I think gender as a term is useful when you later talk about gender reassignment. You have your gender but then you can also reassign your gender. They fit together – it makes for uncomplicated explanations and conversations further up the school.




For this reason I am clear that the poster is not an Equality Act poster and it doesn’t mention the equality act on there. If we’re talking specifically about the Equality Act with older children and they use the term sex, I will correct them, but I think it is the concept behind the language for younger children that is more important – all different, all equal. The aim of the poster is to make clear and accessible for children all the ways we are different and all the ways we are accepted.



We sell hundreds of these posters and I am often re-ordering them from the printers. Every time I re-order I do consider changing the gender bubble to a sex bubble. But the more I think about it, I always conclude that when I teach children, and they list the ways we are all different, what words do they use? I have never heard a child use the term “sex” to describe boys and girls. Children in my school tend to say “you can be a different religion, different race, boys and girls, LGBT” In the end I don’t think it matters. Some people are definitely trying to make it a political issue, I just want children to know that there are boys and girls and everyone is equal.



I hope that helps. I’m interested if you think we should change the gender bubble in the future. Let me know your thoughts, eager to discuss.

Great to hear that no outsiders is going so well in your school.

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SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 13:03

Signing in...

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:12

The poster

Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured
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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:13

My current draft. Not complete, need to work on the final paragraph. It will include the links to the school's own policies, but I won't include them here, as it does out us.

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lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2023 13:15

Also signing in

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:17

Dear DepHead,

Thank you for your email, dated 26/01/2023.

On the 11th of January, we discussed the No Outsiders posters displayed in school, which show nine attributes or categories of people that are welcome in the school, and who are "equal". Eight of these attributes/categories are the EA 2010 protected characteristics, with their exact wording in law.
The ninth category, which in law is "sex" has been replaced with "gender", which has no current definition in law.

My first concern is that this is at odds with the 2020 Department of Education RSE guidance, which states that outside agencies and resources must be checked by the school, to ensure that they comply with the Equality Act 2010. (A)

Please see below for excerpts, references and source links.

My second concern is that No Outsiders appears to have a political agenda, as shown by the investigation by Shelley Charlesworth, hosted by Transgender Trend (B). This investigation highlights the deliberate conflation of sex and gender, as well as Andrew Moffat's involvement as a co-presenter of a paper entitled "Queering the Body: Queering Primary Education". From the communication from the external provide, to the school, I would suggest that by saying "Everytime I re-order I do consider changing the gender bubble to a sex bubble", the external provider is acknowledging that they are aware the current poster is incorrect. By asking the school "(if you) think we should change the gender bubble in future" (back to sex)", it is to be noted that the external provide has clearly devolved a final opinion of this matter to the school, as though to remove liability from themselves.

Schools have a legal duty to remain politically impartial, and must not promote partisan political views, but should offer a balanced presentation of opposing views (C). Are there any resources used in school which highlight the importance, and protected status, of biological sex?
As an initial step, there should be posters on display that correctly show the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Safe Schools Alliance have produced a free, downloadable copy, as an example of best practice (D). I am aware of schools who have removed the No Outsiders posters, due to parental complaints about their inaccuracy.


It is important that young children are taught to use clear, defined language, to describe themselves and the world around them. Gender is defined by Stonewall as "Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth." (E). The UK Government states gender is "a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity" (F) The World Health Organisation definition is that gender is based on socially constructed features. (G)

If children cannot clearly describe their world and body, it places cracks in their safeguarding, especially with the most vulnerable children. From your own safeguarding policy, you state that "We give special consideration to children who:

have special educational needs or disabilities (SEND) or health conditions
are young carers
may experience discrimination due to their race, ethnicity, religion, gender identification or sexuality
have English as an additional language (EAL)
are known to be living in difficult situations
are at risk of FGM, sexual exploitation, forced marriage, or radicalisation

By conflating sex and gender, this discriminates against students with SEND and EAL, who have an exceptional requirement for clear and defined language. In your own SEND policy, it is stated that "We recognise that it is necessary to ensure that the school’s curriculum is accessible to all children" and "Particular attention is given to those who may struggle to communicate with adults." Likewise, as gender is variously defined as having a social and cultural determination, the use of gender rather than sex discriminates against students of a different race, culture or ethnicity. It also does not allow for the clear safeguarding of female children at risk of FGM.


In order to safeguard all students, including the most vulnerable, it is important that


Yours,
Veb

References

A.


"When deciding on the external agencies and resources to use, you should make appropriate checks to ensure that the agencies’ approach to teaching relationships education, relationships and sex education and health education and the resources that they plan to use comply with:

the Equality Act 2010"

Source: Department for Education, Guidance; planning your relationship, sex and health education curriculum, September 2020

Link: www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#using-external-agencies

Last accessed on: 24/01/2023

B.

Source: No Outsiders: Queering the Primary Classroom , Transgender Trend, April 2019

Link: www.transgendertrend.com/no-outsiders-queering-primary-classroom/

Last accessed on: 28/01/2023

C.

Source:
Department for Education, Guidance; Political impartiality in schools, February 2022

Link: www.gov.uk/government/publications/political-impartiality-in-schools

Last accessed on: 28/01/2023

D.


Source: Safe Schools Alliance, Equality Act Protected Characteristics Poster

Link: safeschoolallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/

Last accessed on: 28/01/2023

E.

Source: List of TLGBTQ terms, Stonewall

Link: www.stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms

Last accessed on: 30.01.2023

F.

Source: What is the difference between sex and gender? Office for National Statistics, UK Government, Feb 2019

Link: www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Last accessed on: 30/01/2023

G.
Source: Gender, Health Topics, World Health Organisation


Link: www.who.int/europe/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1

Last accessed on: 30/01/2023

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beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention.

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Shelefttheweb · 01/02/2023 13:29

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention.

Intersex people would fit with their sex as all ‘intersex’ conditions fall into either one sex or the other. The use of gender excludes all those who do not believe they should be forced to identify with sex stereotypes and that gender is actually a sexist idea that oppresses women and girls.

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:29

Thanks to the posters on the previous thread.

Here is a possible final paragraph;

While I agree that the messages of equality and inclusion are important and such behaviour should be encouraged in school, I feel that accurate language around this is vital for the reasons stated above.
Consequently, I would like to see the school replace the misleading No Outsiders posters either with accurate EA posters such as the one from Safe Schools Alliance linked above. Alternatively, it may be more appropriate to use something else entirely, with a more general message of us all being equal despite our differences

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SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 13:31

From the communication from the external provide...

Should be provider, there's another example, too.

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ReadtheReviews · 01/02/2023 13:32

Two thoughts. I think the No Outsiders person may mean the posters rather than the children when he says 'i will correct them'. Secondly, that it is a political statement to say 'you have a gender' since the term has been corrupted to not be synonymous with sex but to mean 50+ different things, none of which you are obligated to 'have' or define yourself with if you aren't woo inclined.

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SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 13:37

beccaboo222 · Today 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

They are presenting it as though it were officially sanctioned, but missing sex, which is a provision under the Equalities Act. They know perfectly well that it's not. Sex and gender are not synonymous, nor interchangeable. They've demonstrated that they know this.


If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit?

Please do not use the derogatory and false term "intersex," when you mean People With DSD. People with DSD are still either male, or female, though there external appearance may not reflect that. They comprise 0.018 % of the population and they'd doubtless know that they are, too, welcome.

DSD people and trans people have no relationship, despite now mostly abandoned attempts by the trans zealots to co-opt them. DSD groups have told them repeatedly NOT to co-opt them into the trans activism sphere. It's highly offensive to them.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/02/2023 13:38

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention.

Intersex people have repeatedly asked not to be co opted by trans activists like the No Outsiders group. It's ignored of course, just as the rights of every other group are ignored and their situation is appropriated to try to justify women being forced to undress in front men, men being allowed to take over women's sport and the need to remove all hard fought for rights for women etc.

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ReadtheReviews · 01/02/2023 13:41

And I object to the NO person saying sex might make them giggle as a reason to leave it off. Are they going to avoid saying same sex couples or sexuality? Wouldnt males and females be a better alternative anyway than gender for the poster if that is their problem?

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Jellycatspyjamas · 01/02/2023 13:42

They have an issue with using sex because younger children might find it funny or tell
parents they learned about sex today but they include sexual orientation in the poster. I’d argue sexual orientation can be a more tricky, and more likely to illicit giggles in young children than the concept of biological sex.

Its clear they are setting kids up to conflate sex and gender to make the concept of gender reassignment easier to introduce at a later stage - they’ve said as much in their email. It’s grooming in plain sight.

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:47

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/02/2023 13:42

They have an issue with using sex because younger children might find it funny or tell
parents they learned about sex today but they include sexual orientation in the poster. I’d argue sexual orientation can be a more tricky, and more likely to illicit giggles in young children than the concept of biological sex.

Its clear they are setting kids up to conflate sex and gender to make the concept of gender reassignment easier to introduce at a later stage - they’ve said as much in their email. It’s grooming in plain sight.

I completely agree with you, and although I've not included it in my message, their RSE policy states that students need to know about marriage and same sex marriage, before they leave primary school. How can they teach this, if they don't use the term sex, for the two sexes?

Ditto, sexual orientation.

However, though this might make it too long. It could be included in the "discriminating against students with SEND/EAL"?

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beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:51

I didn't know that intersex was a derogatory term - thank you for bringing this to my attention, I will look into it some more.

The poster makes no reference to transgender children and doesn't necessarily reflect what children are being taught. So I still think it's a bit of a stretch. But clearly both sex and gender are important in terms of inclusivity - so should the poster not be updated to include both terms?

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:51

More thoughts. After I have given the three definitions of gender (I thought that provided a variety of sources and viewpoints), should I then ask about how gender is being taught without reference to harmful sexism stereotypes, as this is against teaching practice (would need to find the reference)

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Catabogus · 01/02/2023 13:52

I’m quite concerned about this phrase in the organisation’s response:

If we’re talking specifically about the Equality Act with older children and they use the term sex, I will correct them

Are they really “correcting” children wrongly to say that gender not sex is in the EA? Or do we think this was a typo and they meant to say “if they use the term gender” (fits better with the sense of the sentence perhaps)?

Sorry - slight derail - but I thought it worth pointing out.

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Boiledbeetle · 01/02/2023 13:53

Just offering tea and cake to the travellers. And placemarking

☕🍰

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:54

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:51

I didn't know that intersex was a derogatory term - thank you for bringing this to my attention, I will look into it some more.

The poster makes no reference to transgender children and doesn't necessarily reflect what children are being taught. So I still think it's a bit of a stretch. But clearly both sex and gender are important in terms of inclusivity - so should the poster not be updated to include both terms?

You mean, change the Equality Act?

8 out of the 9 protected characteristics are written there AS THEY ARE IN LAW.

Only sex has been replaced.

Fine, show a poster that includes us all, makes us all welcome, but schools have a LEGAL duty to teach the Equality Act, and that includes SEX. Not gender.

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Igmum · 01/02/2023 13:58

Great cake @Boiledbeetle thank you. Is that coffee I see over there?

Excellent letter. And I agree, this lot have foisted all legal responsibility onto the poor schmuck of a DepH and they haven't spotted it yet. Very disingenuous response from them, but also, I suspect, one they have practiced.

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beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:59

But the poster doesn't mention the equality act. I understand what you are saying, but is your concern about the poster or what the children are being taught? Because if it's the latter, the poster doesn't reflect what the children are being taught about the equality act - wouldn't it make more sense to ask how the children are taught about the equality act, rather than going off on a tangent about the semantics of an inclusivity poster?

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