Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured

[Vebrithien]

Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Thank you all, so so much for the support you have given me.

I am currently working on the draft of the message I want to send.

Long story short, DD's primary school displays posters by No Outsiders, showing the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Sex as been replaced with gender.

I have raised this with the Head, the assistant Head, and the Deputy Head (DepHead, as DH just doesn't work here). I have been reassured that sex is synonymous with gender in law, and, through an email stream, No Outsiders have reassured the school that it is deliberate, gender is easier to teach children than sex, especially as some will snigger at sex.

Oh, and teaching that gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on.

I'll put the message from the DepHead and No Outsiders here, and also my reply, in its current state.

Thank you all again!

Sorry Vebrithien.

Added it for information for lurkers, rather than suggesting you get bogged down in including it. This goes back to 2008 - there's so much historic information out there that it's hard to keep on top of which are the child centred groups and which are the queer theory adults advocates who should be nowhere near schools. And the rainbow washing be kind narrative means that few people have the confidence to raise this in public.

I think so! And let's face it, many female teachers have had to bring cases linked to sex discrimination in the past.

MrsO that's absolutely horrific

By the way, as you know, Moffat knows full well it's sex as he's got it in the preamble/ introduction to his teacher book.

As a graphic designer it's interesting to see that the only 'teardrops' with a clear and bold illustration or icon (viewing small on my phone or how it would be seen at a distance) are the gender reassignment and gender ones. The gender reassignment one also jumps out being orange and in the centre, whilst the green recedes - sneaky.

I won't muddy this thread with what I know about a particular institution/ group of academics pushing the queer narrative into classrooms. It's not just Moffat.

Tose he's had an agenda from the first conception of the programme. Early pilots were actually done at schools near me (I don't think it was just him though) and it was more around LGB and of course the T.

Yes, I think both those amends - gender and sex discrimination - are good. Clear and to the point.

The inclusion of sex as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act, directly addresses the issue that people can be discriminated against due to their sex.

This is the key purpose of sex segregation when changing from age 8 upwards.

.beccaboo222 · Today 13:25
As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

You need to read thread one perhaps to understand why what you say here this is wrong.

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention

If by intersex you mean DSD these are very rare medical conditions and unrelated to this question. People with DSDs will be protected under sex and under disability.

*Catabogus · Today 13:52

Are they really “correcting” children wrongly to say that gender not sex is in the EA?

No, they're lying, plainly and simply lying. They know the difference, but have deliberately chosen to pretend that the two are the same thing, knowing exactly why they have excluded "sex."

The poster is guising as being based on the EA act and therefore, correct and accurate, when, in fact, it's incorrect, imprecise and inaccurate.

It's propaganda and it has no place in any part of the public sphere, especially in schools.

beccaboo222 · Today 13:59

But the poster doesn't mention the equality act. I understand what you are saying, but is your concern about the poster or what the children are being taught? Because if it's the latter, the poster doesn't reflect what the children are being taught about the equality act - wouldn't it make more sense to ask how the children are taught about the equality act, rather than going off on a tangent about the semantics of an inclusivity poster?

If the inclusivity poster is not the Equality Act, it is mimicking it to the extent that it would mislead children into thinking it is by quoting all the characteristics bar one.

Apart from that it says ‘WE ARE ALL EQUAL’ underneath.

Parents, who are aware of DoE guidance that children be taught the EA, are likely to assume the reason it is on the wall is to teach the EA.

It also misleads children into thinking sex - called gender here - can be swopped, when it cannot, by putting the bubble ‘gender’ showing male and female signs right next to the ‘gender reassignment’ bubble which shows exactly the same male and female signs but adds reverse/swop arrows.

1. If is not the EA it is misleading.
2. It conflates sex with gender wrongly and misleadingly
3. If it is not the EA where has the school put a real EA poster so as to fulfil its obligations according to the DoE?

At the very least it shows that NO and, AM at its head, are manipulative, have agenda, and their resources should not be near any school.

Definitions of gender by Stonewall, the UK government and the WHO are all different and all highlight there is social and cultural impact on how gender is understood.

Veb, after this, could you say that in contrast to how ‘gender ‘ is a social construct, children just need to know that ‘sex ‘ is physical body and whether they are a boy or a girl?

Every single human, including "intersex" people has a sex.

Not all humans have a gender. Gender is akin to a religious belief.

Leaving our sex would exclude me as I do not subscribe to the religion of gender and neither do my children.

I agree that would be a good addition.

I believe the correct term is DSD, not intersex. Also, sex is identifiable for most people with DSD - they are not trans, and many find it offensive to have that definition even implicitly imposed on them. 'Sex' includes absolutely everyone, because everyone has a sex.

God.

My daughter is doing homework on a phone app and hasn't bothered to listen to the information. I told her to go back and listen again, but she says it wipes all her work.

The question, 2 answers: what types of reproduction to animals and plants have.

Answer: sexual and asexual. I even went online to show her. She's in bloody tears, as it's my fault she'll be in trouble for swearing.

FFS!

As a PP said, primary children have "magical thinking". If you tell them that gender is the difference between girls and boys, and that you can reassign or swap your gender, they truly believe that humans can change biological sex.

This actually happened to the child of a friend of mine. Aged 11, Scotland, fee paying school, she was taught people could change sex. The lesson apparently included detailed discussion of prosthetic penises and 'turning a tap to pee'. That last detail was something even I didn't know, nor did her mother. Her daughter was actually properly unsettled by it all, very very uncomfortable, and didn't want to go to any more classes.

"Turning a tap to pee"?

Why on God's Green Earth would you do that to yourself?

I don't mean to dismiss those who cannot reconcile their personality with their natural body, I cannot imagine that discomfort. But, bloody hell.

From 15 years observation, over the last 5-7 years I've had increasing numbers of students insisting humans can change sex. Unfortunately, many are in the lower sets, and once they have an idea, they are very unlikely to let go of it.

Interestingly, I also teach a handful of autistic, GCSE level girls. Each of them is gender non-conforming, but they are top set, and are perfectly happy that they are females. But, being able to have a sensible conversation with them, also helps.

I'm so very pleased that you are fighting this. It makes me weep that it's come to this. Such a vile and dangerous ideology.

children just need to know that ‘sex ‘ is physical body and whether they are a boy or a girl

sex is not just whether they are a boy or a girl - sex is sow/boar, cock/hen, cow/bull, tib/tom, pen/cob, ewe/ram, stag/doe. It is whether you will get a apple off your tree, or a courgette off your plant, it is why we need bees and other pollinators, it is the dangers of hormones in rivers, or the temperature of a crocodile eggs, it is the feathers on a peacock and leks. It is why our banana variety is so vulnerable, and pet dogs differ. It is food production and population control. It is Afghanistan and infanticide....

Shelefttheweb Very powerful and completely true 👏

You have put that marvellously Shelefttheweb, and that is so true. That would be a beautiful paragraph to write to the deputy head.

I was just trying to think of something short for the letter in the context of saying sex is different from gender, and in the context of AM saying they would snigger at the word

Feel free to use

It isn’t my letter, in case I gave the wrong impression, Shelefttheweb. I was referring to suggestions for Veb’s letter.

I love it, @Shelefttheweb

Might see if I can weave a sentence or two in...

Have you asked to see the school's anti-discrimination policies yet? This may help you find out if they use the protected characteristics properly elsewhere or if they have been captured completely.

If there is ever any accusation of discrimination, the school must be able to show that they have policies using the correct protected characteristics, otherwise they may have issues with mounting an effective defence.

So if, for instance, a parent launches a discrimination claim because they feel their girl is being discriminated against on the basis of her sex, the school would struggle if the discrimination policy uses gender.