Page 4 | Sturgeon getting an absolute grilling on Channel 4 News

dunBle · 2023-01-30T19:36:36+00:00

I should imagine the clip will be doing the rounds on twitter shortly if it's not already, but their Scotland correspondant Ciaran Jenkins did a really good job in a brief interview with her when she was on a tour of a TV studio today. Raised the issue of Katie Dolatowski, and got her quite rattled trying to get her to justify her comments about transphobia and racism. Should be on about 8:15/8:20ish if you want to watch it on C4+1

FactsAreNotMean · 30/01/2023 20:53

What do you mean by transwomen need to be recognised? I think you need to define what you mean and then what you think is missing.

Because it seems to me that they have oodles of recognition as transwomen

If what you mean is that they need to be recognised as women then no, they don't. They need to be allowed to express their sense of identity - in terms of dressing etc however they want - but they do not need to be legally recognised as women or have access to women's spaces, and they don't have the right to demand that we accept them as women.

AngelinaFibres · 30/01/2023 20:53

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:50

"Transwomen stumbling across a thread on the Feminism. Sex and Gender board on Mumsnet? Why would they be over here stumbling about?"

I saw this at the very top of the active threads when I clicked in to my mumsnet app, and I'd imagine all others will too.

I do totally understand that the reason you're all so passionate is a desire to protect women's rights, and that's obviously important to me too, but there's the issue of all individuals who experience prejudice and discrimination, including women but also including trans women and men.

I know I'm derailing in joining this conversation, so please feel free not to answer but in seeing some of you deny completely that a trans women is a woman, I wonder if you can tell me if you can accept a woman who has transitioned to a man as a man, or if it's only this way around that it's not acceptable? Do you accept when a person is fully transitioned their chosen gender identity, or never at all?

There are 2 sexes male and female. You can call yourself any kind of gender you wish but underneath it all you are biologically a man or a woman. You cannot change sex.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/01/2023 20:53

Trans men are still women

wear what you like, call yourself what you like, challenge all the gender norms you want, but people can’t change sex and sometimes sex really matters!

StephanieSuperpowers · 30/01/2023 20:53

SomethingLikeThisNow · 30/01/2023 20:51

I wonder if TRA were thinking #BeKind to women all the way from "Die In a grease fire" to "Decapitate Terfs"???

Yeah, they obviously meant those things really nicely.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/01/2023 20:54

JemimaTiggywinkles · 30/01/2023 20:45

My biggest focus is really about the effect of the ideology and validation approach on children.

I have been promised that there is government guidance coming on how to deal with gender identity in schools (by my MP and the relevant minister). No idea when, but I’m sure it’ll be soon because politicians never lie.

Same goes for EHRC guidance on single sex spaces. I’m crossing all my fingers that they point out how it is perfectly legal, and often desirable, to segregate by sex.

We absolutely must keep up the pressure too. Once all the “rapist in women’s prison” stories have been followed up by the media, we will need to push the NHS policy mixed sex wards to the forefront of public consciousness.

Me too. But given the capture of so many civil servants in the DfE and a government that's been promising these guidelines for over 5 hears, I'm not confident that anything coherent will emerge
Although the Scottish rapists in women's prison might be giving some second thoughts about putting in writing that girls must share showers and dormitories with teenage boys?

PronounssheRa · 30/01/2023 20:54

I noticed the facial twitching at the start as well, so unlike her. To be honest I think it's because she knows she's talking unmitigated nonsense.

There is no amount of briefings or prep that can make this make sense.

BeReet · 30/01/2023 20:54

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/01/2023 19:49

There's nothing she (or any of the TWAW brigade) can say that is coherent or logical. It's an abusive, incoherent, male dominated set of fantasies that have been allowed to gaslight the population, oppress women and groom numerous children into believing their bodies are somehow wrong and need fixing.
Forcing men into spaces where unconsenting women and girls undress and are vulnerable is what they want and they've managed to achieve this using all the underhand tactics laid out in the Denton's report.

FINALLY people are being held to account for what they've done.

Yes, this 👏 👏

Circumferences · 30/01/2023 20:55

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:25

Do any of you ever think about how a trans woman would feel stumbling across your threads on here?

I know you all feel strongly about this but I feel genuinely sad at how the understandably emotive issue of trans women in prisons has whipped people up to a point where there's such glee in posts like this, and underneath it all is such a dismissive and negative view of all the trans women in our society and how they feel - which is often I would imagine desperately unseen, marginalised and discriminated against.

Calling a group the "trans women are women brigade" is so unkind to trans women everywhere who deserve to be recognised.

Do you ever stop to think how women feel about where gender ideology has lead us?

I feel genuinely sad about how the definition of "woman" has been obliterated. Actually, a bit more than sad. Furious actually.

Transwomen are not women, never were, never can be, never will be. Deal with it.

Farmageddon · 30/01/2023 20:55

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:50

"Transwomen stumbling across a thread on the Feminism. Sex and Gender board on Mumsnet? Why would they be over here stumbling about?"

I saw this at the very top of the active threads when I clicked in to my mumsnet app, and I'd imagine all others will too.

I do totally understand that the reason you're all so passionate is a desire to protect women's rights, and that's obviously important to me too, but there's the issue of all individuals who experience prejudice and discrimination, including women but also including trans women and men.

I know I'm derailing in joining this conversation, so please feel free not to answer but in seeing some of you deny completely that a trans women is a woman, I wonder if you can tell me if you can accept a woman who has transitioned to a man as a man, or if it's only this way around that it's not acceptable? Do you accept when a person is fully transitioned their chosen gender identity, or never at all?

To what extent should I or anyone else be compelled to participate in your self image, or indeed self delusion.
Nobody gets to demand that of everyone else.

It's not women's job to validate you, particularly to our own detriment.

NoFlowersForEmily · 30/01/2023 20:55

If transwomen were women, they wouldn't be transwomen they would just be women.
Only a man can be a transwomen by definition.
Hth

feelingcadoubleledlove · 30/01/2023 20:55

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:50

"Transwomen stumbling across a thread on the Feminism. Sex and Gender board on Mumsnet? Why would they be over here stumbling about?"

I saw this at the very top of the active threads when I clicked in to my mumsnet app, and I'd imagine all others will too.

I do totally understand that the reason you're all so passionate is a desire to protect women's rights, and that's obviously important to me too, but there's the issue of all individuals who experience prejudice and discrimination, including women but also including trans women and men.

I know I'm derailing in joining this conversation, so please feel free not to answer but in seeing some of you deny completely that a trans women is a woman, I wonder if you can tell me if you can accept a woman who has transitioned to a man as a man, or if it's only this way around that it's not acceptable? Do you accept when a person is fully transitioned their chosen gender identity, or never at all?

Never at all.

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:55

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 20:52

oh for heaven's sake

insisting that you are literally a member of the opposite sex (something that let's remember, is impossible) reveals disordered thinking

we don't tiptoe around people behaving in a delusional manner. it doesn't help them

But don't you think an alarmingly short number of years ago it was acceptable in general society to hold a view that "being attracted so someone of the same sex shows disordered thinking, they need help with mental illness / conversion therapy, not to be allowed to continue with this"....

And now we've thankfully moved on from this.

picklemewalnuts · 30/01/2023 20:56

Look a squirrel!!

picklemewalnuts · 30/01/2023 20:56

Or is it a sealion? I can't remember the difference...

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/01/2023 20:57

Ah ok - was giving benefit of the doubt but I suspect a full bingo card rapidly approaching…..

Circumferences · 30/01/2023 20:57

I think it's a strawman or straw squirrel over there I can see

queencactus · 30/01/2023 20:57

But we've not heard beeeee kiiind yet...

FactsAreNotMean · 30/01/2023 20:58

PronounssheRa · 30/01/2023 20:54

I noticed the facial twitching at the start as well, so unlike her. To be honest I think it's because she knows she's talking unmitigated nonsense.

There is no amount of briefings or prep that can make this make sense.

I noticed the facial twitching too - my mother used to do it when she'd had a drink, it was her tell before the shitty behaviour and slurring started. Not saying Sturgeon had been boozing, just explaining why I really noticed it!

Surely there must come a point where you think "if I cannot give a coherent answer which explains my stance, then my stance isn't coherent?"

I genuinely can't decide if she is a true believer who is now being faced with holes, a soft believer (a "be kind") who has now realised she's in the shit, or if she never believed it at all.

DisappearingGirl · 30/01/2023 20:58

LikeAnOldFriend to me it's not about accepting or not accepting.

I'm a pretty pragmatic person and I think you just have to take a common sense approach.

A male wearing feminine clothes - great, I have no problem with that, however they identify. If they prefer to use a feminine name and pronoun, that's fine with me too.

But I don't think it's a good idea to allow any males in women's spaces, particularly prisons, as that is dangerous for women and open to abuse by people like pink leggings penis rapist.

I'd happily support other practical solutions eg third spaces.

But we've been called bigots for years for saying anything like this.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 20:58

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:55

But don't you think an alarmingly short number of years ago it was acceptable in general society to hold a view that "being attracted so someone of the same sex shows disordered thinking, they need help with mental illness / conversion therapy, not to be allowed to continue with this"....

And now we've thankfully moved on from this.

Show quote history

do you think we'll move on to people literally being able to change sex?

no one's saying these chaps can't dress how they like. I'm just saying they haven't changed sex

do you think they've changed sex?

Marchmount · 30/01/2023 20:58

And so we’ve had a “be kind, most vulnerable blah blah blah” poster. Transwomen have shown an utter disregard to women with their agressive dismissal of any concerns and screaming their empty mantras whilst expecting total compliance to their feelings in the face of all rational thought. Why should women be kind when their rights are being systematically dismantled?

picklemewalnuts · 30/01/2023 20:58

Perhaps a Chelsea Bunbury? It's so confusing.

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 30/01/2023 20:59

StephanieSuperpowers · 30/01/2023 19:51

So they can report on it now, eh? Now that countless women have sacrificed themselves while they turned the other way.

Cowards.

If only we could like posts. All bloody true

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 20:59

It would be interesting to know which interview was done first because she seemed more rattled in the ITV one. And becoming rattled by the time of the "what evidence is there of all these 'phobes and 'ists of which you speak" in the Channel 4 one.

And did the BBC also get a slot?! Sky? Anyone else??

And and and...do we assume no one else will go out to bat, since the media is actually holding the top gal to account, and that the plan from this morning to use Keith Brown was swiftly abandoned?

GailBlancheViola · 30/01/2023 20:59

@LikeAnOldFriend I will give exactly the same amount of care, concern and thought that transwomen, TRAs, MRAs and all the sycophantic submissive allies who have promoted and supported this agenda that strips not only the most vulnerable of women and children of the most basic of rights and considerations but all women and children, have given to women and children and that is absolutely zero. Seems fair enough to me, get back what you give out.

I will, however, not stoop to their level of death threats, rape threats, sexual violence threats.