Andrew Burns AKA Tiffany Scott

[Signalbox]

Wtf is going on? Another violent man being moved to a women's prison in Scotland. A man so violent they can't even take him to court and NHS staff refuse to treat him.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/new-trans-prisoner-storm-looms-29069314

😁😆 I think it must be the wine but this is funny. You have to laugh at the craziness. I'm watching the stock aitkin waterman program and wishing it was 1989 again.

The most important one.

We're not service humans, or human shields, or willing to be the subjects of a social experiment.

Anyone got the bingo card? Think we're missing
Intersex
Infertile women
TW are just the same as women who have had surgery to remove various female bodily parts
Suicide rates

Anything else?

Janice, Bob, Kathy - whatever their name is.

Both males and females produce estrogen, just in different quantities.

Why don't you offer to house him then?
I'm sure he'd be a charming house guest.
A delight to share a confined space with.
You can have pillow fights and do each others hair.

It would be great if ‘sex change’ were actually possible.

We could cure all the little haemophiliac boys straight after birth by making them into girls.

And we could end male violence by transitioning all the violent male offenders into females (because if sex change was real, we would be able to see evidence in the criminal behavioural patterns of post transition people).

We’d literally be able to stop 95-99 % of sex and/or violent crime overnight and we’d thus save a fortune on the public funds currently spent on policing/the courts and probation system and prisons!

Even with the additional costs for the NHS the books should more than balance. Prisons cost a fortune.

So what shall we spend our extra public fund fantasy cash on, wimms?

As an aside, It Is SO WEIRD that a bunch of people have started denying that sex differences exist at the exact same point in time that research on the human genome is proving that there are MORE sex differences than anyone had ever anticipated. The future of medicine is going to be DNA based, and yes, chromosomes are part of our DNA.

Cops can already find out if a perp is male or female via testing trace evidence on a discarded cigarette butt, for chrissakes!
And no, they aren’t testing for lipstick residue.

Is this a recognised phenomenon? Did more people start believing in aliens AFTER humans invented space travel?

Of course you're not less female because of your hysterectomy.

I'm sorry you were beaten by your mother.
But that doesn't mean all women are horrible and all men are great.

These men have committed horrible violent acts (sorry but very much worse than your mother did to you from what you have disclosed) and you are suggesting they share cells with female prisoners who are very very unlikely to be able to defend themselves. You know how that feels, and again, I'm sorry that happened to you. But please extend your compassion to the female prisoners.

Unable FFS!

I take artificial estrogen because I had a complete hysterectomy/oopherectomy at age 36 - am I no longer female in your eyes?

You are getting your arguments in a muddle here - we’re the people who say chopping off your knob just makes you into a knobless chap, so of course we don’t think a hysterectomy makes a woman into anything other than a woman who has had a hysterectomy!

Humans can’t change sex.
If you were born female, you’ll die female.

twitter.com/HighImpactFlix/status/1610033960049860614

Lean on your strawman argument all you want, f this was just about an individual case, you wouldn't be saying the kind things I'm seeing here

@Idwtlotpam I understand where you're coming from 🌸

I don't believe that someone like Andrew Burns should be in a women's prison or in any women's places. However I do understand what you mean about cases like these being used as a justification for much more generalised transphobia.

It is Russell Findlay who makes sense:

We need to see the SPS’s new policy about these issues without delay. The safety of females in custody and prison staff must be the primary consideration, not the rights of dangerous criminals.”

This man sounds insane.

I wish my dad was still alive and not her.

Again, the assumption that we just don't understand

A female is a female regardless of which parts have been removed or added on. A male likewise remains male. That is the whole point - no GC woman would ever argue that a woman who has had a full hysterectomy is not a woman - that is a false equivalence you are more likely to hear from TRAs.

A transman - mtf for clarity- is still female. Testosterone does not turn them in to a male.

Your sex is written in to every cell in your body and it doesn't change.

And I'm familiar with violent mothers, having one myself. But I'm also realistic - at 5ft 1 and weighing about 8 stone, with female musculature, upper body strength and power, when she beat my brother with a metal bar from the airing cupboard she caused severe bruising. The same level of effort and aggression from a male could well have killed him.

Transitioning doesn't remove the differences caused by sex - and most transwomen do not undergo medical or surgical transition.

Misogyny is not okay or justifiable. I think you should step away from the thread for your own sake 🌻

Honestly? In my opinion and not aimed at anyone so don't delete please, this community does harbour a lot of transphobia and yes posters here do form an echo chamber so dissent and opinions against the grain of the board are often treated with derision and personal attacks even when valid points are made. There are much better and safer communities out there, I wouldn't give your energy and time to these boards.

But I'm also realistic - at 5ft 1 and weighing about 8 stone, with female musculature, upper body strength and power, when she beat my brother with a metal bar from the airing cupboard she caused severe bruising. The same level of effort and aggression from a male could well have killed him*

Jesus Christ. Women can beat people to death with weapons too. The sad truth is most abusers don't intend to kill their victims and aim to "only" hurt their victims, and death results when they go too far. If someone is willing to beat someone with a metal pole they could absolutely kill them, it makes me sick to even have to write this.

Can we not excuse female violence? I genuinely don't see how that makes any positive contribution or argument. We all know how deadly men can be, we don't need to somehow quantify or lessen female violence in order to prove that men are dangerous. They are dangerous because statistically they are more likely to, for whatever reason, patriarchy, societal roles, genetics, be the ones in the position of power and dominance, and therefore be the ones handing out the beatings 🙁

It does not mean women are less capable, it's that they are less likely to do this. And no I'm not arguing them women are less strong, only that you don't have to be that strong to damage or kill someone if you are using weapons.

So again, can we please not minimise or excuse female violence? It is offensive to any victim or survivor of violence perpetuated by women and again, doing so is not necessary to acknowledge the capabilities and scope of male violence.

There are women in jail for murdering their husbands. Their children. For all sorts of horrible crimes. Women are just as fucking evil as men if not more.

Yes there are. But there are far fewer of them than there are men in jail for murdering their wives or their children, or for rape.

So, while segregating by sex obviously isn't going to do anything about the risk to women from other women, it takes away the risk to women from men. And that is still worth doing. And then with that big risk out of the way, women's prisons can focus on the risk between women.

There's also the staff to think about. As a woman I would not be okay with taking a job in an all women's prison and then having to deal with Andrew as an inmate.

This is why I believe that the case by case basis system that is already in place is the best system to have. Would you expect women in prison to feel comfortable around a trans man that looks like Buck Angel? Would you expect a trans woman who has been on puberty blockers, lifelong hormones and top and bottom surgery to be anywhere near safe in a mens' unit? If you're a reasonable person without a transphobic agenda, the obvious answer to those questions is no. Because sex essentialism doesn't work in every case.

Does that also mean though that every case should be judged on self ID alone? Hardly, in my opinion. And implying as much leads to situations like we have now, where NS U-turning on the Isla Bryson case was even needed to be a U-Turn or moral argument in the first place. Because she knows it's a representation of the whole gender ideology debate. Human beings should not be held up as ideological concepts! Dehumanising people and treating demographics as homogenous groups will always come at the cost of individuals on both sides of the coin.

You’ve “dead named” a transwoman and suggested that the female prison estate isn’t the right place for him. You do realise that this makes you as “transphobic” as the rest of us don’t you?

Nahhh I'm definitely not as trans phobic as lots on here. I've got no problems with using pronouns, referring to myself as a cis woman, and trans people being allowed to use public toilets that match their assigned gender etc.

As much as people always say on here "I'm not transphobic I just believe in single sex spaces" those people in the same breath also say that you can't call trans women women and you can't even say trans and cis women (which by default means you have to say trans women and women, so clearly saying you don't think trans women are women even in the social constructy way and not the cunty way)

Of course women can and do do terrible things.

But try and make a list of sexually motivated female serial killers - it’ll be very short, whereas a list of male ones will be rather considerable. There is no female equivalent to say, Dennis Nilsen.

Male and female offending patterns ARE statistically significantly different and that difference has meant the safety and security protocols that have developed within the two prison estates are also very different.

The female estate is just not set up to deal with male violence or male sex offenders.

How many female prisoners have murdered fellow inmates in the UK? How many male prisoners have murdered fellow inmates in the UK?

There are some criminal behaviours that are actually far more common in women than in men - harming their own children through munchausens/fictitious illness is an obvious example, but a female prisoner can’t really munchie by proxy a fellow adult inmate the way she can a kid, can she?

It’s still a fucking awful thing to do to uour child and of course it should be prosecuted and punished but the prison risk profile of a mother who seriously harmed a child in this manner is low when it comes to the likelihood of harming her prison peers.

Same with a woman who hired thugs to kill her husband - she deserves to be charged and sentenced as though she physically killed him herself, but even as convicted murderer, her physical threat to fellow inmates is low.

(Does anyone know off hand what the female perp murder rate is in the US compared to here? The ubiquity of guns could be a significant variable. Pretty sure that the male perp murder rate is still much, much higher but happy to be proved wrong)

I can dig out some resources as to how the prison estates differ if you like?

FWIW I don’t think all trans prisoners should just be slung in with the general prison pop in the male estate, but rather that all trans prisoners, male and female, should have tailored provision that considers both their bio sex AND their transgender status.

Their trans status shouldn’t be prioritised OVER their sex, but it shouldn’t be completely ignored either, just like special provisions for elderly, disabled and young offenders exist.