Andrew Burns AKA Tiffany Scott

[Signalbox]

Wtf is going on? Another violent man being moved to a women's prison in Scotland. A man so violent they can't even take him to court and NHS staff refuse to treat him.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/new-trans-prisoner-storm-looms-29069314

Yeah, some members quit the party rather than vote. Nicola knew EXACTLY what passing the bill meant, for all women.

Yep.

This was me in 2018

“How can one fight the legitimate fight for women's rights when one is engaging in activity which lands them labelled as transphobic? If that is your genuine intention and you genuinely aren't transphobic, does it not bother you that you might be unintentionally acting in such a way?”

This is me now (after I realised that simply not wanting to call myself a ‘person carrying a uterus’ was enough to get me labelled ‘transphobic’)

and do you think us all pretending that if a chap slips on a blouse and talks about his 'lady brain' he is really a woman helps break that gender binary or reinforce it?

can you explain what this means?

what are the characteristics of the feminine gender?

what are the things these chaps have in common with me that mean I should see them as women?

you're going to get angry now and flounce because you can't answer this without sounding incredibly sexist

that's OK

you'll get there

I would say that comment is unfair to trans people. I also didn't say they are doing anything to break gender binary, I say we live in a world where gender binary isn't broken.

If you don't want to at all entertain trans identities in day to day like then I don't see why anyone who holds those views would also purport to be transphobic?

And yes I don't see the value in refusing to use trans peoples' preferred pronouns and identity.

Then why don’t trans activists come up with some new nouns and pronouns that refer only to gender, rather than pinching the we’ve been usinb to refer to sex for hundreds of years?

I don’t mind saying a man has changed from masculine to feminine (although it’s a purely subjective opinion) but I will not say a man is now a woman or a male has become a female because that is colluding in a lie.

okey doke. I'd hate to be unfair. Help me understand

explain to me what it is that makes Jane Fae a woman just like me

or Kellie Maloney

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie_Maloney#:~:text=This%20made%20Maloney%20the%20first,she%20was%20undertaking%20gender%20reassignment.

why is he a woman like me? what do all three of us have in common that we don't share with (say), Boris Johnson?

@CandlelightGlow

With regards misgendering and hurting feelings

In the past few days I have seen a transwoman tell another transwoman they aren't true trans as the second one still used he/him despite having had surgery and living their life as a woman. I've seen a man associated with stonewall decide a man with a beard can't be a transwoman. And I've listened to a transwoman decide another trans woman is probably lying and then purposely misgendered that transwoman. If the trans community can't decide on the rules and follow them, why should we?

No I'm not going to flounce! It's not some big secret surely? If someone tells me they are a trans woman and told me they used she/her pronouns I would assume that they wanted me to refer to them as a woman. I don't have any worries that this person would believe they were literally a natal woman but that they felt trans (a feeling I can't relate to) and so had transitioned. Though I can't imagine what it must be like to feel trans, as someone who lives in a world where characteristics, physical, emotional, aesthetic and social characteristics, are associated with not only masculinity and femininity but deeper than that into maleness and femaleness, I have no problem understanding that gender dysphoria and a sense of not identifying with your biological gender is real. The fact that people put up with abuse and discrimination and that they ask to be referred to as the opposite of their birth sex tells me.

I genuinely don't understand what the whole confusion and I don't understand how the fact that there is a definitive reality of biological sex conflicts with the idea that someone could have a gender identity.

Also

I'm sure trans people as individuals all have different and sometimes opposing views on what it means to be trans!

Gender identity is a social construct, it's not something definitive and anchored like sex. I'm sure that the nature of it means different people have different opinions on what it means to be trans.

I think you are where many of us have been over the years. But to touch on a couple of your points

"Sometimes I believe that there are cases in which people are so trans that it no longer makes sense to consign them to single sex spaces designed for the opposite sex."

I did go through a phase of thinking that if you had gone through full so called reassignment surgery then maybe you should be allowed in to single sex spaces. But the more I thought about it the more I had a few issues with this

1. Most of us can identify a male or female without seeing what is in their pants (contrary to popular belief). But we have no way of telling if said male has had the contents of their pants surgically inverted. So how would we tell the difference between a post op and pre op individual? Answer - we can't. And on a day to day basis women need to be able to say "you're a bloke, beat it" or the whole thing doesn't work
2. Whilst surgery removes the penis, it doesn't change male pattern behaviour or strength
3. I can't in any good conscience hold a position which might push more people to have these horrific surgical procedures.

So for me, no, there is no point where I now think "you can go in women's spaces" with regards to anyone male.

and
"I consider them victims of binary gender roles rather than perpetrators."

Aren't we all? But by insisting that by refusing to conform with binary gender roles they become the opposite sex, they actually entrench these binary roles even further. It makes it worse for everyone else; now non conformity is taking as a sign you are in the wrong body, rather than refusing to comply with arbitrary stereotypes. It isn't broadening the scope of womanhood, rather it narrows it still further.

but that they felt trans (a feeling I can't relate to).

But they aren't saying they feel trans. They are saying they feel like the opposite sex. But they have to be lying because they cannot know what that feels like.

does your fictional lovely polite trans woman belong in the ladies loos at your work?

does your lovely polite trans woman belong on the Jo Cox women in leadership programme?

does he belong in a women's hospital ward?

But if they won't follow the rules about believing someone and not misgendering. Why should I when I believe someone is lying

as someone who lives in a world where characteristics, physical, emotional, aesthetic and social characteristics, are associated with not only masculinity and femininity but deeper than that into maleness and femaleness, I have no problem understanding that gender dysphoria and a sense of not identifying with your biological gender is real

what are the emotional characteristic of maleness?

what are the social characteristics of femaleness?

I think we are all aware of generalised characteristics of the sexes. I understand the purpose of the thought exercise but I feel like I've already addressed this in that post.

The SNP, Scottish Greens, Lib Dems and Scottish Labour voted against suggested amendments to the GRR being put in place to safeguard the safety, dignity and wellbeing of women in prisons, including -

an amendment to pause an application for a GRC for those charged with rape or sexual assault which was defeated by the casting vote of the Presiding Officer.

An amendment which sought to prevent convicted sex offenders being allowed to change their gender.

There were over 150 amendments, discussed over a ridiculously short 2 days, with the majority voted down, including a suggestion to yearly monitor the effects of the GRR Bill on women and girl's rights.

The Scottish Government's hand was forced at the 11th hour to hold an additional evidence session because they had refused to hear from experts on VAWG. The 'feminist' groups in support of the bill are all majority funded by the Scottish Government.

The SNP had to whip its members into voting for the Bill and even then, faced the biggest revolt by SNP MSP's since they came to power.

All this is in addition to the Scottish Government being warned repeatedly that the SPS's policy was being unduly influenced by Scottish Trans Alliance who said the following -

'We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

No women's groups or experts were consulted in the development of the policy. No female prisoners were consulted. The EQIA doesn't consider the effects on women in prison at all.

So either the Scottish Government are appallingly incompetent or they simply don't care.

Neither fills me with confidence.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4726257-nick-timothy-in-the-telegraph-on-the-grr

@CandlelightGlow if you click on the thread above and read the article in the telegraph it explains what motivates a lot of people currently under the trans 🌂

Hah - I was just about to post that image!

I do appreciate that honestly, but I suppose that is the difference between us. I just don't assume that most trans people are identifying as trans to be manipulative or predatory. That's why I would always use preferred pronouns etc.

If someone is acting oddly I would avoid or report them, whatever is appropriate. Regardless of sex or gender identity. There's a trans woman who volunteers at a service I use (a service completely unrelated to any sex segregated ones). They're lovely. I don't look at them and think, "ew, I bet you're getting a kick out of wearing your hair long and putting a skirt on." That's a horrible and transphobic assumption! What's the justification?

no you haven't given any examples

give examples please

then listen to how sexist you sound

prove me wrong

give me some real examples of the social characteristics of maleness

I didn't say they weren't sexist!! That's not my argument at all.

I'm simply saying I don't blame trans people for the fact that there are gendered views of men and women beyond biologically being male and female.