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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Andrew Burns AKA Tiffany Scott

407 replies

Signalbox · 28/01/2023 11:30

Wtf is going on? Another violent man being moved to a women's prison in Scotland. A man so violent they can't even take him to court and NHS staff refuse to treat him.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/new-trans-prisoner-storm-looms-29069314

OP posts:
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34
Boiledbeetle · 30/01/2023 20:38

beastlyslumber · 30/01/2023 20:19

I'm having a ball watching Sturgeon flounder.

I'm desperate for this whole shitshow to finally come undone.

To be fair it is a ball ache for her

Boiledbeetle · 30/01/2023 20:40

And have now just noticed the flounder joke! I was still on women with balls in my head.

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 20:42

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/01/2023 18:30

@CandlelightGlow

What NS has said is right and fair.

Fair to who? The idea that males could ever belong in the female estate, that there is ever a context where that is reasonable and acceptable, is predicted entirely on meeting the male need.

This whole mess exists because of this fantasy that some males have an inner mental thingyness that makes them "actually" women so the right place for them is with other women. So now we have the cost and worry, case by case, on how we square the circle of fitting male people into structures that were never intended to be mixed sex, and how we judge just who has the right inner thingyness to qualify, and who is genuine but deluded, and who is just faking. (And forgive me if I don't think "wait till he rapes someone" is the best way of doing that.)

But the thing is, even if this thingyness in truth exists, even there is a root cause, a difference in these men which makes them genuinely different to other males, the jump that this "thingyness" is actually womanhood, and it is this, not the undeniable and inescapable fact of our bodies, that determines the challenges female people face is ludicrous. Laughably inane.

The fantasy that these men could ever be more appropriately housed as women simply does not stand even the smallest of critical thought. But take away that fantasy, and why would anyone ever even need to find a "fair" way to accommodate men in female-only spaces in the first place?

My apologies, I didn't actually allude to what NS said that I thought was right and fair, so that is my bad.

So sorry I'm kind of tired so I can't find it verbatim but she is quoted in the BBC article on this matter as saying her position on these matters is to ensure the safety of women in these situations without demonising trans people.

That is 100% my position and what I believe is right and fair.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 20:44

heavens to murgatroyd

if you think NS gives one shiny shit about the safety of women in prison I have a lovely bridge I'd like to sell you

if this hadn't hit the press she'd still be cheerfully sending rapists off to shower with the women

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 20:57

FWIW and this is probably not the thread for it, your middle paragraphs do sum up my position on the gender ideology debate. I will have to remain gender critical due to not only the damage to women not doing so does, but also because there is no such thing as a just and fair system really, that can arbitrate who is "trans enough" to be accepted into single sex spaces and who isn't.

I will admit I oscillate on this point quite a lot. Sometimes I believe that there are cases in which people are so trans that it no longer makes sense to consign them to single sex spaces designed for the opposite sex. But ultimately, in settings where women are genuinely in vulnerable positions in that same sex environment, I do come down on the GC side.

What I do have a problem with is how hard it is to separate this view with the transphobia of trans people as an entire demographic that goes with it. Like on MN where people claim that they're not transphobic, only care about the appropriation of womens' rights and spaces, but then denigrate trans people, imply and discuss how it's solely a sexual fetish, disparage the very idea of using preferred pronouns etc. I fail to see how any of that behaviour is relevant to upholding the rights of women and is not just hatred of trans people, or at the very least an indifference to their wants and needs as a group.

I can acknowledge that TRA and #nodebate has perhaps contributed to a perceived need to be combative and it seems that many at least on here, have developed an all or nothing attitude. I also understand how the phrase "trans women are women" has become detrimental to the trans rights cause because it's easy to interpret that as "trans women are biological women". I never interpreted the phrase like that but it seems I'm in the minority there and even public authorities talk about TWAW like it means that.

I genuinely don't understand what is so hard about saying that sex matters and that some spaces are single sex for a specific reason and that you as someone born male don't have the lived experience needed to decide that that is irrelevant, but also that we can respect that trans identity is real and valid and that most parts of every day life are not segregated by need for single sex spaces and therefore there is no problem with accepting peoples' gender identity in society.

People on here always say that they do think that and they don't care that people identify as trans but then lose their minds at the idea of using pronouns etc. How can one fight the legitimate fight for women's rights when one is engaging in activity which rightly lands them labelled as transphobic? If that is your genuine intention and you genuinely aren't transphobic, does it not bother you that you might be unintentionally acting in such a way?

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 20:58

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 20:44

heavens to murgatroyd

if you think NS gives one shiny shit about the safety of women in prison I have a lovely bridge I'd like to sell you

if this hadn't hit the press she'd still be cheerfully sending rapists off to shower with the women

I don't know that tbf, I don't know much about NS. Surely no woman is "happily sending rapists off to women's prisons" that sounds like hyperbole.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:03

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 20:58

I don't know that tbf, I don't know much about NS. Surely no woman is "happily sending rapists off to women's prisons" that sounds like hyperbole.

erm

what do you think the GRR was all about?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:06

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 20:57

FWIW and this is probably not the thread for it, your middle paragraphs do sum up my position on the gender ideology debate. I will have to remain gender critical due to not only the damage to women not doing so does, but also because there is no such thing as a just and fair system really, that can arbitrate who is "trans enough" to be accepted into single sex spaces and who isn't.

I will admit I oscillate on this point quite a lot. Sometimes I believe that there are cases in which people are so trans that it no longer makes sense to consign them to single sex spaces designed for the opposite sex. But ultimately, in settings where women are genuinely in vulnerable positions in that same sex environment, I do come down on the GC side.

What I do have a problem with is how hard it is to separate this view with the transphobia of trans people as an entire demographic that goes with it. Like on MN where people claim that they're not transphobic, only care about the appropriation of womens' rights and spaces, but then denigrate trans people, imply and discuss how it's solely a sexual fetish, disparage the very idea of using preferred pronouns etc. I fail to see how any of that behaviour is relevant to upholding the rights of women and is not just hatred of trans people, or at the very least an indifference to their wants and needs as a group.

I can acknowledge that TRA and #nodebate has perhaps contributed to a perceived need to be combative and it seems that many at least on here, have developed an all or nothing attitude. I also understand how the phrase "trans women are women" has become detrimental to the trans rights cause because it's easy to interpret that as "trans women are biological women". I never interpreted the phrase like that but it seems I'm in the minority there and even public authorities talk about TWAW like it means that.

I genuinely don't understand what is so hard about saying that sex matters and that some spaces are single sex for a specific reason and that you as someone born male don't have the lived experience needed to decide that that is irrelevant, but also that we can respect that trans identity is real and valid and that most parts of every day life are not segregated by need for single sex spaces and therefore there is no problem with accepting peoples' gender identity in society.

People on here always say that they do think that and they don't care that people identify as trans but then lose their minds at the idea of using pronouns etc. How can one fight the legitimate fight for women's rights when one is engaging in activity which rightly lands them labelled as transphobic? If that is your genuine intention and you genuinely aren't transphobic, does it not bother you that you might be unintentionally acting in such a way?

see, I don't think that using the correct sex based pronouns for someone is transphobia. so I don't think I am transphobic. I see a man, I say 'he'

I genuinely have no problem with people dressing as they like. I'd be pretty fucking annoyed if I got fired for wearing trousers or having short hair, and likewise I'd be angry if a man was fired for wearing a frock

what I don't get is the insistence that trans people have changed sex. they haven't. I don't have to pretend they have.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:06

you're about where I was 7 years ago.

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:08

I suppose most people go about their lives not being rapists and violent criminals, so people like Isla Byrson weren't the target demographic.

This is my point. These things are implemented with trans people in mind. The fact that it can be exploited by predators should be the argument. I literally don't see the need to bring down an already pretty heavily marginalised minority, who are all individuals and not some homogenous group think with the same opinion, due to this conflict of rights.

The fact that it wasn't thought out properly in terms of safeguarding is a travesty, but it's not trans peoples fault, it's their fault for being short sighted and naive. I don't believe anyone in Scottish government was deliberately serving up women to violent criminals.

Boiledbeetle · 30/01/2023 21:08

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 20:58

I don't know that tbf, I don't know much about NS. Surely no woman is "happily sending rapists off to women's prisons" that sounds like hyperbole.

That unfortunately was exactly what HE did when she whipped the party to vote through the GRR Bill without safeguards in place, in fact safeguards were suggested but knocked back. It's shit show of a bill with low support from the people of Scotland.

Boiledbeetle · 30/01/2023 21:08

NS not HE

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:10

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:08

I suppose most people go about their lives not being rapists and violent criminals, so people like Isla Byrson weren't the target demographic.

This is my point. These things are implemented with trans people in mind. The fact that it can be exploited by predators should be the argument. I literally don't see the need to bring down an already pretty heavily marginalised minority, who are all individuals and not some homogenous group think with the same opinion, due to this conflict of rights.

The fact that it wasn't thought out properly in terms of safeguarding is a travesty, but it's not trans peoples fault, it's their fault for being short sighted and naive. I don't believe anyone in Scottish government was deliberately serving up women to violent criminals.

well it bloody well should have been done with them in mind

scot gov were warned often enough that the Isla Brysons are there

no, I don't think most men who enjoy role playing as women are violent rapists. but they do have bloody weird ideas about women. how could they not? they think that by changing their clothes and their mannerisms and the way they think they can literally become women

it's incredibly sexist and insulting. I don't have to smile and take it.

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:11

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:06

see, I don't think that using the correct sex based pronouns for someone is transphobia. so I don't think I am transphobic. I see a man, I say 'he'

I genuinely have no problem with people dressing as they like. I'd be pretty fucking annoyed if I got fired for wearing trousers or having short hair, and likewise I'd be angry if a man was fired for wearing a frock

what I don't get is the insistence that trans people have changed sex. they haven't. I don't have to pretend they have.

You don't think it's transphobia but calling a man who identifies as a trans woman "he" would obviously be transphobic. Whether you meant it or not. If there was a random transwoman presenting as female by wearing a dress and a wig came into your office for a meeting or bought a coffee from you and you insist on calling them "he". That is transphobic. That's all I'm saying. You might not agree with me but they certainly would. It's not going to be any less hurtful to them because you are GC.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:13

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:11

You don't think it's transphobia but calling a man who identifies as a trans woman "he" would obviously be transphobic. Whether you meant it or not. If there was a random transwoman presenting as female by wearing a dress and a wig came into your office for a meeting or bought a coffee from you and you insist on calling them "he". That is transphobic. That's all I'm saying. You might not agree with me but they certainly would. It's not going to be any less hurtful to them because you are GC.

yeah, we disagree

reality ain't transphobic

ArabellaScott · 30/01/2023 21:13

But I find it hurtful that a man claims he's a woman.

AlliwantforChristmasisgu · 30/01/2023 21:13

My position is that in most situations in life, things can be mixed sex.

Where we need to separate, I can think of many reasons to do so on the basis of sex, and none to do so on the basis of gender.

So, if transwomen like to wear dresses, make up, and high heels, then fine. But nothing can make a man a woman.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:14

ArabellaScott · 30/01/2023 21:13

But I find it hurtful that a man claims he's a woman.

silly Arabella

your feelings don't matter!

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:16

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:10

well it bloody well should have been done with them in mind

scot gov were warned often enough that the Isla Brysons are there

no, I don't think most men who enjoy role playing as women are violent rapists. but they do have bloody weird ideas about women. how could they not? they think that by changing their clothes and their mannerisms and the way they think they can literally become women

it's incredibly sexist and insulting. I don't have to smile and take it.

I do understand this but when you look at the societal and patriarchal world we live in as context, I understand why if someone is trans, bearing in mind that sex is binary, and identify as the opposite sex, they would want to present to the world in ways that are stereotypically female.

I consider them victims of binary gender roles rather than perpetrators. Perhaps if society truly changed and there were no longer social pressures that dictated that femininity and masculinity are intrinsically linked to maleness and femaleness, then nobody would identify as trans. Or maybe there would still be trans people and we'd find out that all along it is just an innate emotional or psychological thing, more like sexual orientation.

But in any case that world doesn't exist yet.

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:18

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:14

silly Arabella

your feelings don't matter!

I never said anyone's feelings don't matter, so I hope that isn't aimed at me.

I think people need to stop believing or pretend believing that they think being trans means changing bio sex. People advocating for trans people need to stop doing that and people using it as an excuse to detract from trans people also need to stop doing it.

Unless this whole bullshit reductive facade doesn't end, there will never be peace for anyone.

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:20

AlliwantforChristmasisgu · 30/01/2023 21:13

My position is that in most situations in life, things can be mixed sex.

Where we need to separate, I can think of many reasons to do so on the basis of sex, and none to do so on the basis of gender.

So, if transwomen like to wear dresses, make up, and high heels, then fine. But nothing can make a man a woman.

100%

Boiledbeetle · 30/01/2023 21:20

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:13

yeah, we disagree

reality ain't transphobic

In fact just the other day a Robin, a barrister who is a transwoman decided to gatekeep transness on tv and decided he's wasnt sure of isla and thought that despite isla declaring she was trans and going by she/her pronouns isla was probably lieing so he refused to use her preferred pronouns. Now i think the transwoman on the tv is lying about that as men can't be women. So from now on i will follow the rules of the barrister on the tele and call Robin he/ him.

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:21

Boiledbeetle · 30/01/2023 21:08

That unfortunately was exactly what HE did when she whipped the party to vote through the GRR Bill without safeguards in place, in fact safeguards were suggested but knocked back. It's shit show of a bill with low support from the people of Scotland.

That is very unfortunate and changes my opinion somewhat on NS.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:21

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:18

I never said anyone's feelings don't matter, so I hope that isn't aimed at me.

I think people need to stop believing or pretend believing that they think being trans means changing bio sex. People advocating for trans people need to stop doing that and people using it as an excuse to detract from trans people also need to stop doing it.

Unless this whole bullshit reductive facade doesn't end, there will never be peace for anyone.

you want me to use female pronouns for some men

you want me to behave as if they've changed sex

CandlelightGlow · 30/01/2023 21:22

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:21

you want me to use female pronouns for some men

you want me to behave as if they've changed sex

They would want you to behave as if they have changed gender.