7 yo boy wants to wear dress and tights to school

[TotallyAverage]

My DS has not long turned 7. We've always allowed him to choose his clothes and shoes, toys, books etc as much as he is interested so he has occasionally worn pink trainers and sparkly hairbands etc but generally isn't bothered and just wears navy tracksuit bottoms and a Minecraft/super mario t-shirt. Lately he's been pushing more and more to wear dresses and tights especially to school and I'm not sure how best to reply.

We've always tried to teach him that it doesn't matter how he dresses, what his hair looks like, what toys or films he likes, he's a boy and is male. Boys and girls can like anything they want to, there's no such thing as boys toys etc.

We've done this in a fairly gentle way but always been consistent, I've always thought it was the right thing to do. I'm not totally sure now, as he is questioning why he can't wear a dress to school, if it doesn't change who he is. Essentially asking me to put my money where my mouth is!

As a 3, 4, 5 year old at nursery I'd have let him, he had plenty of princess clothes and things he could wear, but to school/beavers etc? I also don't want anyone to make more of it than it is. We're in Scotland and I feel like we have to be extra careful how we discuss sex and gender with the children.

I'm not sure I'm expressing myself very well here, I'm basically trying to say to him dresses are only for girls, but also that he can be who he wants and wear what he wants... I'm in a guddle with it. Maybe I'm overthinking? Any wisdom?!

Isn't saying 'x item of clothing is for 'x gender' part of the problem? This is making people think being a woman = wearing a skirt, and if you are interesting in presenting this way it's dysphoria.

I'd say let him wear it but say people might behave strangely. Be clear to the school he's not trans, and if there is a feeling he might be this is only a conversation for parents. Then reflect with him afterwards how it felt and how people were.

I brought it into the conversation because someone else brought up the issues of going to the toilet as a reason for a boy not to wear a dress. What a ridiculous argument. The OP and her family are in Scotland, so if there's one place in the UK where men and boys going to the toilet whilst wearing a skirtlike item of clothing is a pretty normal thing to do, it's there! So how is it an actual problem exactly?

Me disengeneous? Going to the toilet is just being used as a (very flimsy) reason against boys wearing dresses or skirts. That argument falls apart very quickly, and all that's left is "boys don't wear dresses just because" which feeds into this notion that x is for girls and y is for boys.

There are campaigns against gendering clothing and toys, clothing and toybrands and retailers are regularly criticised for gendering their products, and some retailers have made efforts to put their items into age groups rather than gender-based groups.

OP, I'm not having a go at you, you've brought him up in a way that tries to get away from all that nonsense, which is great, it's a shame you've met this stumbling block. Like some others have said many schools are going the way of stating a universal dress code and removing the gendering of uniforms, and that's the way forward.

If your son's school insists on a boy/girl uniform code, it could be reasonable to say to your son that his school are old fashioned and a bit silly to be like that whilst still telling him he can wear a dress outwith school in his own time. At the same time explaining that many people also hold old fashioned views and that he might attract comments.

Isn't saying 'x item of clothing is for 'x gender' part of the problem?

Absolutely!

You might disagree with my point, but if you’ve ever worked in a primary school you’d know the reality. The skirts would be drenched in urine. Most boys do not sit down to pee. I don’t know what your vision of modern Scotland is but kilts aren’t everyday wear for most males. An adult man in a kilt is very different to a young boy in a school skirt as anyone can see. Your point was why are skirts more practical for girls than boys. Using the toilet is the obvious answer.

If boys and girls all had the same haircut and clothes till puberty, I think at that stage they’d break out of that unisex uniform and set up new stereotypes of boy/girl of their own accords.

Where did I say every day?

True you didn’t say everyday, you said ‘The OP and her family are in Scotland, so if there's one place in the UK where men and boys going to the toilet whilst wearing a skirtlike item of clothing is a pretty normal thing to do, it's there!’ I was using everyday in the sense of normal attire. Kilts aren’t typically normal attire for most Scottish males.

This is a tricky issue and I’m not an expert on these things but I have two thoughts. One is, your ds might be looking for reassurance that boys wear a certain uniform to his school and he’s a boy so it’s ok for him to do that. In seeking to be open minded and not stereotype your son, you may not be seeing his simple questioning and puzzlement at getting to know the world. Secondly, have you considered the reactions of his friends ( both msle and female) to him potentially wearing ‘ girls uniform’ ? This might raise further questions and confusion.

suggestionsplease1 · Yesterday 16:58
I don't know that FWR can square the circle of their prevailing and conflicting ideologies on this one, OP.

On one hand there will be a sentiment that the sexes should be free to wear whatever they like, and on the other hand you will be told that you son, if he persists in this in adulthood, will be an AGP male.

FWR is a discussion forum, not a political party with an agreed manifesto we’ve all signed our names to.
A message board with multiple posters will obviously have multiple opinions.

Besides, Blanchardian typology would point towards OPs swishy, dramatic, glittery hairband-liking, pink trainer-wearing little boy being far more likely to grow up to be HSTS than AGP so your little dig at women-who-refuse-to-enable-males-with-cross-dresssing-fetishes doesn’t even work properly.

Anyway, it’s perfectly reasonable to believe that gendered clothing is largely just silly stereotypes AND also not want your small child to be victimised for attempting to subvert those stereotypes before said child is old enough to anticipate potential social repercussions.

After all, if it was up to us hairy legged second wavers it would be dungarees with proper pockets and bovver boots for all 🙄

(Plus kohl eyeliner at weekends)

OP I agree with previous commenters, a brief explanation as to the historical/practical conditions that led to the now curious/somewhat outdated* convention of skirts for girls and trousers for boys plus a bit of ‘uniform do be like that sometimes… soz’ sympathising, and then continuing to wear princess dress up at home/on non uniform days/to parties etc is probably the most practical way forward.

There are some fantastic historical paper doll books available, should questions/curiosities arise from your explanation!

I’ve always encouraged creative/expressive dressing for both my son and daughters and sadly there does come a time when institutional rules/dress codes pose limits on that free expression (my youngest, on starting reception, was horrified when she realised she now had to wear more or less the same green, yellow & grey outfit 5 days a week for the majority of the next 7 years 😱)

*the enormous variation in female body proportions including some seriously non-standard waist/hip/thigh ratios mean I would never want women & girls to have to sacrifice the skirt option to appease the Relentless Gods of the New Gender Neutral Order, despite my dungaree related jokes. Bigger/deeper pockets FTW tho.

threadcurve.com/why-were-skirts-invented

PS - the main reason men started wearing trousers (as opposed to everyone wearing skirt or dress type garments) was the domestication of the horse and subsequently horseback warfare (war has seemingly always been a massive motivating factor for technical innovations!)

threadcurve.com/why-were-pants-invented/

Op, sorry to jump in and run, but beavers is definitely the cyan blue beaver jumper and scout trousers (navy), girls and boys, and the group necker Depending on how strict your group is, they may let you away with anything on their bottom half, joggers, school trousers, leggings, but in 350 beavers, cubs and scouts I have seen through, no-one has ever worn a skirt. Simply impractical for what they are doing, and while allowances can and would be made, it would not be the norm.

I would ask him what his reasons are. Why would he like to do that.
I would talk about the various things I would love to be able to do but cant (eg be taller. Eat pizza and chocolate all day long. be brilliant at singing etc) and say that sometimes its nice to imagine. Its nice to dream. But truth is you are a boy and boys wear trousers and a shirt etc.

Don't spend a fortune on dresses and tights, peer pressure will soon kick in and I say this as someone who believes kids should present as they , within reason obvs.

And I disagree with you that it is not a valid reason. As a parent, I suspect that the practicalities at 7 years old will be an issue.

This is not a child already familiar with a kilt as OP would have mentioned it.

I agree that clothing should not be ‘gendered’ but most schools don’t have just one uniform choice, that is unisex. Therefore, it will take a long time to change this.

However, there are practical things to consider with uniform choice and having watched seven year olds eager to get back and play have toileting issues makes this point a valid one. The number of wet clothes I found on my child because of struggling with clothes to stay clean because they just wanted to get back to the game is testimony to that or who left it to the last minute because of the game. I doubt I am the only one .

You can disagree all you want.

OP can choose to fight for her child’s right to wear a dress. But so far, OP hasn’t worked out whether the question is a passing one or something that she needs to fully consider. She is looking for answers to give him, and it is not wrong to consider the practical realities.

If he had been wearing dresses and skirts at home first, it would be a different story. OP hasn’t indicated that yet, or I have missed a page. It is also not something to go and start fighting for if it was just a question asked out of interest and not an actual request.

Why would OP start to do this at this stage? To make a point? When in the end her son isn’t even interested past a one off question?

I would suggest that OP will have many other issues to consider, maybe even fight for, every year at school without expending effort on something that was just a normal 7 year old curious question. If he is actually wanting to do this and she is wanting to engage the school, then it becomes a fight she can choose to have if even needed.

And yet, there is no harm at all for OP to hear all sorts of reasons to do this or not to do this. Just because you personally don’t think it is a potential issue, doesn’t make it not an issue.

What I find curious is parents telling children that they can wear whatever they wish, when actually this is not true. You cannot go out of your house in full Lifeguards kit, as you would be impersonating a soldier and might well be arrested, you cannot wander around Catholic churches in parts of Europe with bare arms or wearing shorts. Telling children they can wear what they like is setting them up for trouble later and has shown itself to be difficult here, where a 7 year old boy wants to wear a dress and everyone ties themselves in knots trying to say he can, when the answer is that he cannot. (You could read him Anne Fines 'Bill's New Frock' which is about a boy who wakes up as a girl - quite interesting esp as he does not like it much and is very confused as his family act as if he's always been a girl - he changes back next day. It was written long before gender woo btw.) Our culture allows men to wear trousers, shorts and kilts, and women to wear all those plus dresses/skirts. Kaftans and various clothing from other cultures are generally okay with everyone and lots of people (my DH included) wear such clothes. Gender neutral uniforms usually mean forcing girls into wearing trousers, btw, which not all of them wish to do - there have been several school campaigns to stop gender neutral uniforms that do this, with schools citing health and safety and modesty as reasons i.e. the boys are sexually harassing the girls, which the school needs to stop properly, not force girls into trousers.

One thing that occurred to me is the image of a very hot day with little children just taking nearly all their clothes off and going to play under hoses to keep cool which would show what it all is about in essence: different clothes for boys and girls generally simply reflect the unavoidable truth that boys and girls don’t have the same bodies, and designated clothes and hair tend to be favoured to stop any confusion when they are too young to show secondary sexual characteristics.

Thinking of alternatives to this division. After the foot binding of girls’ feet days were over, didn’t Chinese children and even adults have a very neutral unisex style in the Communist era? I’ve always thought those padded jackets and trousers look practical and very comfortable for either sex.

Trousers are more useful for everyone boys or girls than Western style dresses, but those long cotton robes Arabs wear must be cool for both sexes in very hot countries.

Lots of males are interested in clothes and fashion and don’t like having to stick to trousers and shirts, day in day out, while women can wear all sorts.

Equally lots of women dislike wearing skirts and dresses and heels and prefer wearing trousers and boots.

But when you’re 7 and meant to be focusing on your schoolwork during school time just stick to the school uniform for those few hours eh?

My son is almost 9. He wears dresses probably half the time outside of school, he has done since he was 3/4 he says they're just comfier, especially in summer. Less sweaty.

He doesn't wear them for school because he hasn't requested them, if he did we would say yes, if he still wanted them by his next uniform purchase time. The school uniform is unisex so anything goes.

He absolutely knows he is a boy in a dress when he wears one. He doesn't try to be a girl, he doesn't want to be a girl. He just likes dresses.

He has worn them for none uniform days at school before and not complained about anyone being rude, he also had hair down to his waist so he's used to people mistaking him for a girl anyway, he tends to either correct them or ignore them.

We've taught him that he's not wearing a girls dress, it's his dress and he's a boy so it's a boys dress.
Same for his hair. He doesn't have girls hair, it's his hair and he's a boy so it's boys hair.

He is autistic though so doesn't care what people think and will just reply to people with logic. Someone once asked him if he was a girl when we were out shopping and he replied "No, I have a penis" 🤣 so I'm not worried.

He and you sound wonderful.

@SeasonsHeatings

Yay! You sound so sensible, both you and your son.

Someone once asked him if he was a girl when we were out shopping and he replied "No, I have a penis" 🤣 so I'm not worried.

😂😂😂😂

It's a really interesting question.

When they're 4 I would say no, because they don't get the implications of everyone assuming they're a girl or teasing them about looking like one.
And usually a couple of terms of school they get how uniform isn't like wearing random stuff to preschool and don't want to any more.

By 7 they should know they'll get gyp, and I would make sure they knew they'd get people thinking they are a girl or want to be a girl. But at some point they're allowed to know their own minds and it is within the rules. If DS wanted to and stuck to it I'd probably get him a kilt-like skirt to still look traditional as school uniform is not supposed to be high fashion. (I'd probably pick one up from the school second hand sale for a quid as I wouldn't expect the whim to last...)

I think men wearing skirts /should/ be normalised, as long as said skirts don't come with a side order of fake boobs and misogyny. Why not, it's just a matter of fashion. I don't think it's enough normalised yet that I wouldn't approach with caution when it comes to uniform which is supposed to look traditional.

I grew up through the fight to include trousers for girls in school uniform - when I started secondary it was not allowed, by the end it was. But it was normalised for adults first. Difficult for them to not let girls when half the female teachers were in trousers.

I grew up through the fight to include trousers for girls in school uniform

Same here! But it wasn't resolved when I left school as it was only in my last year (84/85) that girls got together and had protest days where they wore trousers.

Why not just be a parent and tell him the boys uniform is trousers or shorts.
You are being as soft as a mop!!!

sounds like your son is trans.

Holy crap, mate, are you a time traveller from the 60s or something? 😂

Chaps can wear skirts and frocks! There are even brands that specialise in dresses for dudes!

I’m now imagining you typing at a typewriter in a pin stripe suit and bowler hat 😂😂😂