Non-binary biological boy at DD's girls' school: toilets

[ItsHitTheFanNow]

Hello, a non-binary biological boy has started at DD's girls' school.

Are there any regulations around what toilets they need to use? I just wondered what the actual legal position on this is. Thank you.

If you are indeed a pshe teacher I hope you make more sense to your pupils than you did there.

Good job I didnt suggest anything of the sort then.

FWIW when I was a kid in the 80s our local boy's school had a girl pupil who was one of the teacher's kids. If this kid is in a minority of one I suspect you're on a hiding to nothing complaining about misselling.

There are 2 sexes. This child is male, irrespective of how he identifies. To say he isn’t a boy is absurd. There’s no such sex as non binary

findmybalance · Today 21:09

^howmanybicycles · Today 21:02
It's revolting to ask women to 'compromise' by giving up the language to describe their experience oe their protected spaces. Their is a vast amount of evidence of sex based oppression. Segregating spaces based on niche identities abandons women who need protections because of their body. I have no time for the aggression of such suggestions.^

If you are indeed a pshe teacher I hope you make more sense to your pupils than you did there

What you said made sense to me howmanybicycles
as I think you may be relating this issue of accepting a male child who wants to live as though he is a girl into a girls’ school, and letting him use the girls’ lavatories, to Focault’s ideas that all boundaries are just false social constructs, and that the idea of childhood and innocence is just an arbitrary recent invention - so you may see the school’s decision as a development of this ‘Queer’ theory.

You don't think conceding ground is compromising? It is.

That's quite a lot more academic than my thinking really was! You may have captured something but it is a little above me! But women are oppressed because of their bodies, not their identities. Suggesting that 'woman' is an identity denies those very real experiences.

@findmybalance

Not a term we use anymore in child services/education/mental health

When you said this, you presumed to speak on behalf of the entirety of 'child services/education/mental health'.

You've now acknowledged that you don't work in children's services or in mental health care.

You say you work in a school. What is your role there? That was my question, which you didn't answer.

Incidentally, don't try the queer theory/ Focault [sic] nonsense on me.

I have an actual PhD in Critical Theory (for my sins) and have published articles on poststructuralism and taught this stuff to undergraduates and MA students before I got sick of the whole academia thing, some 15 years ago now.

A half-baked attempt to silence dissenting voices with pseudo-academic word salad isn't going to work with me.

So let's just keep the discussion based in actual reality.

@howmanybicycles · Today 21:02

That's quite a lot more academic than my thinking really was! You may have captured something but it is a little above me! But women are oppressed because of their bodies, not their identities. Suggesting that 'woman' is an identity denies those very real experiences.

So sorry,hownanybicucled, I muddled you with someone else, and my answer was not right for your post, but yes I entirely agree with you.

I think you are confused scrolling leaves, the pount is queer theory tries to deconstruct boundaries which us what the gender ideology movement does. As a teacher thus ideology needs to be challenged in schools and not supported as the find poster seems to. Past examples in the UK and in Germany show us this, ie pedophiles were central in those cases.

Sorry mumsnet auto correct likes to change basic words as well as jump around the page and put in a million lines!

Boomboom22 · Today 23:33
I think you are confused scrolling leaves, the pount is queer theory tries to deconstruct boundaries which us what the gender ideology movement does. As a teacher thus ideology needs to be challenged in schools and not supported as the find poster seems to. Past examples in the UK and in Germany show us this, ie pedophiles were central in those cases

Thank you for explaining. I probably put what I did badly and gave the impression I agreed with deconstruction. I do not.
I completely agree with you.

A girls’ school is a boundary against boys - so Q theory says ‘send boys there’ ‘break that boundary’.

Girls’s toilets represent a boundary-Q theory ‘put some boys in’ break that boundary’.

‘Childhood?’ - Q theory says that’s just a 29th century construct, there is no such thing. Why should children not consent?

Male and female? - Q theory says there is no difference that is not just a social construction. It is a false binary.

What I think though, is that as humans the whole point about us is that we create boundaries and structures on purpose, and for very good reasons.

How can you not identify 'with your sex'?!

You may not identify with the expectations imposed on your sex, or with the idea of femininity/masculinity, but you cannot not identify with a material reality.

You may not 'identify' with the way humans behave, but you cannot identify out of being human. Same with sex.

Jolly good for her!

In our area, the single-sex grammars will accommodate trans children but they must attend the school of their biological sex. So a biological boy can identify as a girl in the boys' school and a biological girl can identify as a boy in the girls' school but a biological boy can't identify as a girl and attend the girls' school and vice versa.

You just say the magic words and hopefully everyone bends over backwards to accommodate you.

IamAporcupine · Today 01:35

“findmybalance · Yesterday 18:17
They do, but they dont identify with it.
Show quote history
How can you not identify 'with your sex'?!”

You may not identify with the expectations imposed on your sex, or with the idea of femininity/masculinity, but you cannot not identify with a material reality.

You may not 'identify' with the way humans behave, but you cannot identify out of being human. Same with sex.

You have put that so well,IamAporcupine.

People don’t seem to understand the difference. Here is a petition related to making that distinction absolutely clear in the Equality Act too, so that people do understand the distinction, and more schools can have the courage of their convictions ( like the Girls’ Day School Trust), as is allowed in the act.

Petition
To update the Equality Act to make clear that sex is biological sex,
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

Well, first of all, ask the school including governors for clarity on this pupil's sex.

If they are indeed a biological boy, ask 'innocent' questions like: Can we expect a communication soon on the school no longer being single-sex? and How do you propose to manage toilet/changing facilities?

Depending on the response, I'd probably then seek legal advice.

Well, first of all, ask the school including governors for clarity on this pupil's sex.

The governors won't be allowed to say anything about a specific child. So be careful to phrase questions they can't dodge by saying that. I'd probably say sthg like "My DD thinks ... I appreciate you can't answer questions about a specific pupil so please can you tell me in general terms whether the school accepts pupils who are male if they identify as trans or non-binary... Followed by something on the lines of DameHelena's questions.

I didnt presume to speak for anyone, it was a general point. I have already acknowledged that I was wrong to assume these changes dont happen simultaneously and can be school/council specific, I'm not sure I need to do any more than that .

I didnt answer your question because I dont have to. I'm not on trial, and I'm certainly not going to risk outing myself and/or give people more sticks to beat me with .

If you really believe I make up the fact the phrase was changed from attention seeking to attention needing, at our last in service, which would be a very odd and specific point to choose to make up, that's fine with me

It's revolting to ask women to 'compromise' by giving up the language to describe their experience oe their protected spaces. Their is a vast amount of evidence of sex based oppression. Segregating spaces based on niche identities abandons women who need protections because of their body. I have no time for the aggression of such suggestions.

Yes, it's pure entitlement and selfishness.

Signed!

IamAporcupine · Today 22:56

ScrollingLeaves · 20/01/2023 10:39

IamAporcupine · Today 01:35

“findmybalance · Yesterday 18:17
They do, but they dont identify with it.
Show quote history
How can you not identify 'with your sex'?!”

You may not identify with the expectations imposed on your sex, or with the idea of femininity/masculinity, but you cannot not identify with a material reality.

You may not 'identify' with the way humans behave, but you cannot identify out of being human. Same with sex.

I had answered:
You have put that so well,IamAporcupine.

People don’t seem to understand the difference. Here is a petition related to making that distinction absolutely clear in the Equality Act too, so that people do understand the distinction, and more schools can have the courage of their convictions ( like the Girls’ Day School Trust), as is allowed in the act.

re: the Petition started by Sex Matters
to update the Equality Act to make clear that the characteristic “sex” is biological sex, which could lead to a Parliamentary debate if it reaches 100,000 signatures and is currently at about 74,000.
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

IamAporcupine · Today 22:56
Signed

🦔not quite a porcupine 🥳🎉

Please forgive a minor derail, but should we look forward to drug-seeking behaviours’ being rebranded as ‘drug-needing’? (Asking for a friend)

A boy is a male child. He is a boy.

A non binary identity does not even have a legal basis.