Complications from trans surgery!

[Ihatedonuts]

I know it's a daily mail article but I can't help thinking. We only ever hear positive stories but the figures tell us this. I really hope the men and woman are getting the support they need from these complications. 🥺

Half of trans surgery patients suffer pain, sexual issues years later mol.im/a/11629421 via dailym.ai/android

You can not biologically change sex.

Representing these ops in any way as anything other than cosmetic procedures, which have a high rate of complications and do not change sex is grossly misleading.

Anyone stating they were born in the wrong body or that they are a different sex (as opposed to gender) to the one they actually are, should theoretically be an automatic fail in terms of ability to consent

Luckily the intensity of this interest in gender/trans faded off after a couple of years and there was a gradual slow shift towards a more healthy experimentation with gender expression while no longer denying my female sex

Normal growing up.

This is part of the issue with teens. They are going through massive physical and emotional changes without the knowledge and maturity to realise that's it's all a perfectly normal process to take us to adulthood.
The intensity of adolescent hormones, combined with more risk taking behaviours, rebellion from parents and peer pressure, can lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms and being easily led.

I don't buy that. Genital transition surgery is not something anybody rushes into unprepared , like a tattoo or botox. It's no secret this is very complex, timeconsuming , expensive surgery with a long recovery time and obvious potential downsides

In Canada and America, girls as young as 13 are having their perfectly healthy breasts removed. They absolutely do not have the mental maturity or capacity to understand the consequences.

Some have spoken out about how it was all so rushed.
Some think if they stop taking testosterone their breasts will grow back.

No probs say the surgeons, we can just chuck in some false ones. That way we get paid twice. Win win.

Want a baby in the future after we've sterilised you? No probs, just rent one of those gross, boring 'cis' women to pop one out for you....

Children cannot consent to being put on a pathway that will destroy their perfectly healthy bodies and turn them into lifelong medical patients on the basis of subjective feelings, especially when all evidence shows for the best majority those feelings change. Puberty blockers should be banned for 'treating' dysphoria as this almost always leads to surgery and cross sex hormones and are not reversible as the TRA's claim.

Teens also think they're bloody invincible and getting older is forever away.

Do you think the girls on testosterone, in female bodies not designed to cope with high doses which, again, are proven to do great damage, understand that by 30 they will have massively increased risk of stokes, heart attacks, cancer, crumbling bones, constant pain etc etc or are they just thinking about their next hit of 'euphoria'

These girls are being put through early menopause when they haven't even finished growing. The medical profession already know early menopause increases risks to women ffs.

They are told if they stop testosterone it will all go back to normal but it won't. The long term damage done, because adults who should know better allowed it to happen.

Perhaps it would be better to stop with all the sickly cute euphemisms like 'top' surgery' and 'bottom surgery' and start calling them what they actually are.

No child, needs an unnecessary radical double mastectomy on perfectly healthy breasts, and it certainly shouldn't be a 'treatment' for a mental health issue.

Also, how come grown men can now claim to be women without making any changes or having any dysphoria, keeping their ability to reproduce and healthy adult body, yet children are pushed to take drugs and have surgery if they say they are trans... very strange double standard.

I am saying that gender isn't a thing in non-human life-forms, yes.

Can anybody on the thread have a guess why I'm saying it?

@JusteanBiscuits it's not just you and I on this thread, it's important to clarify some things for other people reading. I also have no idea whether you actually believe what you're typing applies to people. The fact you raised it at all suggested you might. I'm happy to move on.

That said, and although it's completely irrelevant, it is fascinating

Humans are mammals with 2 sexes, not reptiles, not mushrooms, not clownfish.

Just because bats navigate with echo location doesn't mean we should entertain the notion of installing antenna dishes on our heads.

It's not complicated.

I feel compelled to link Francis Aaron's Clownfish:

The article I mentioned is called "How to deprogram a ROGD teen". Graham Linehan has published parts 1 and 2 on his website and will soon be publishing part 3.
IMO it is a very well written illustration of how vulnerable teens are being indoctrinated and how difficult it is for their parents to protect them.
As previously mentioned, this particular topic has been very well hidden up till now.
TBH, I am amazed that this thread has stayed here for so long and has not, as yet, been bundled off to the naughty corner of MN. I am very glad it is still here so that a wider audience can read it.

@JusteanBiscuits , earlier you said you thought really good mental health support was needed. I completely agree. But how can there be proper mental health support when simply exploring, say, the comorbidities that most trans identified teens have alongside their gender confusion will be outlawed or deemed unethical?

Isn't the job of real mental health support to allow the client to fully express the complexity of their distress? The interconnectedness of the pain they feel?

Or do you just see proper mental health care as just being about affirmation?

I find the whole idea of applying 'conversion' to this topic confusing and deeply unhelpful.

Taking the idea of a Trans identity in good faith, there would be many ways of expressing that. Medical intervention should never be a given (and in fairness, it isn't currently).

So how would you 'convert' someone?

Force them to live under strict conformance of the gender norms of the sex?

That's an unlikely outcome as that applies to almost no-one among a non Trans identifying population.

How else?

Of course good mental health care isn't about affirmation.

Discussing future risks and comorbidities is not conversion therapy. Discussing risks of HIV transmission with a young gay man isn't deemed conversion therapy. It's part of a supportive therapeutic relationship.

It's needed to protect the number of young people who are detransitioning. It's needed to protect everyone. To ensure that someone understands and knows what they're doing, and that they're doing it for exactly the right reason. Not that they're doing it because they "feel they're different". Someone else has mentioned the number of young autistic girls seeking to transition. It's to protect those people.

What am I not getting? I was saying I agree I expect to be told them. From this thread alone it seems that not everyone is being told all the risks and that the research in this area is limited.

All the stuff I've read about conversion therapy and how it's bad and doesn't work, is how it applies to same sex orientation. The trans stuff is just hitched to that waggon and it is not the same at all.

No-one should be tortured, mentally or physically. But that's the law for everyone already.

Help with mental health issues, all mental health issues, should be available to all the people that need it. Therapists shouldn't have their hands chained by unevidenced dogma and ideology.

are you saying gender isn't a thing in reptiles??

Gender isn't a thing in any species but humans because it's socially constructed. Sex on the other hand is a thing.

Oh OK. Thank you I will now click on the link.

The law will be clear on what is, and isn't, conversion therapy.

Will it? How do you know?

Maybe the UK law will be framed better but the Scottish propsal is so vague and so broad it could mean anything.

It is deliberately very broad (the committee said so). But almost anything could be a "conversion practice". Except gender affirmative therapy - gender affirmative therapy is explicilty excluded from being conversion therapy - presumably even if a child is being affirmed as trans to avoid them growing up gay.

You talk as if you think conversion therapy shouldn't be banned?

Depends what you think it is really! First I want to know what it is, in case we accidentally make it difficult to practice something worthwhile, like person-centred exploratory care. I wrote to my MSPs and just got told conversion therapy was abhorrent without any notion of what it entails. Except (sigh) by (some of) the Conservatives who said they were against the bill but again without really engaging with the problem. It's all party politics again.

Are you absolutely sure that the law will be clear? Because the Parliamentary Research Briefing on the subject says "‘Conversion therapy’ (CT) doesn’t have a settled definition".

Some years ago my friend's son was diagnosed with a personality disorder. He was a very troubled young man. But that didn't stop a well known and respected London hospital considering him for gender realignment surgery and beginning hormone treatment. Because he was over 18 they refused to communicate with my friend who became terminally ill a short time later. I have no idea what the outcome was for her son because unfortunately I lost touch with him after her death. It appalled me at the time that he could be considered for life changing surgery while suffering severe psychological problems.

Anything that is not Affirmation 'Acceptance without Exception' is deemed to be conversion therapy.

There has been no interest in looking in the background of the reasons children want to transition. If fact steps have been taken to hide the fact that the majority of children are autistic, gay, in care or vulnerable or a combination of those risk factors.

Any parent who has wanted to do anything other than affirm has been called a bigot.

In some counties, which have followed this path parents who do not affirm have been imprisoned. Under Sturgeon Scotland wishes to take steps for the state to intervene where parents do not affirm to protect the interests of the child.

Also, sex determination in reptiles has no relation to this discussion. If you wouldn't bring up sex determination in reptiles when we were discussing teenagers getting botox injections, then it's not relevant here.

There is no confusion over the patients' sex when people are given hormonal and surgical treatment by clinics. If there was any true confusion, clinic staff would tell parents of male children attending the clinic that these boys might develop breast tissue without cross-sex hormones being prescribed. Staff do not. Because all the adults are clear who is male, who is female, and what developmental stages male and female bodies progress through, without intervention.

It doesn't, no. But as has been discussed, full informed consent would include discussions around future healthcare and all complication, they're not going to outlaw these happening.

Informed consent doesn't happen adequately too often. I know that. But it wouldn't be outlawed.

are you saying gender isn't a thing in reptiles??

You mean sex. Gender is stereotypes and feelings.
Perhaps if people stopped purposely conflating sex and 'gender' things would be much clearer no?

Perhaps if the absurdly disproportionate amount of funding going to push the new gender religion via Stonewall etc actually instead went to fund help for mental unwell children it would be a start.

What exactly would conversion therapy for a 'gender identity' be?
Not pretending your child is the opposite sex?
Not using demanded pronouns?
Not providing validation of someone else's belief?
Providing talking therapy and psychological help to a traumatised child come to terms with their sexed body?
Denying males access to female only spaces and sports?

How would it work with 'non binary' or the genderfluids?

What about gay children being convinced their non conformity means they must be trans? Surely that IS the very definition of conversion therapy?

First we would need a factual, measurable, coherent meaning of 'gender identity' other than 'because I said so'
Been waiting 5 years for an answer to this one so won't hold my breath.

The outcry about this supposed, none evidenced conversion therapy that apparently happens all the time is just the trans lobby piggybacking once again onto the appalling things that happened to gay people, when being gay was actually illegal, so they can get the nonsense that is gender identity written into law.

It's smoke and mirrors. Emotional blackmail.
Gender reassignment, just like sexual orientation, is already legally protected.

Shades of pro-life Americans indignantly saying that no law would ban a woman being treated for a natural miscarriage, or cause a doctor to fear for his or her career if emergency care was provided to a miscarrying woman.

In reality, it's amazing what badly-drafted law can do, because few people want to risk their career and financial stability on being a test case.

Genital transition surgery is not something anybody rushes into unprepared , like a tattoo or botox. It's no secret this is very complex, timeconsuming , expensive surgery with a long recovery time and obvious potential downsides

You wish! Actually it can be something people kind of slide into... first a social transition makes them happy, but then the gaps start to show and they realise they're still not happy, so they try hormones, and that works for a while but after a while that fades, there's still more to try... it's like a downhill slope, people can step off it anytime but it gets steeper the further down you go. Quite a few youngsters don't realise "what have I done?" til after they've done it.

And the downsides get minimised in all sorts of ways. It's not just about information it's about influence. People are less influenced by statistics and experts than by personal stories. And YouTube and Instagram personal stories are highly edited and highly appealing. Look how happy I am with what I've done, laugh off the downside, I'm back in hospital again but it will soon be fine.... So people watch that and think, why wont my cruel transphobic doctor let me have what nakes happy? Or they sign the dotted line because it wont happen to them, or because it happened to their favourite vlogger and the vlogger seemed to cope just fine.

And people choose which stories they look at online. If you're telling yourself "transition will make me happy" you wont be watching detransitioner stories.

Exactly! Gender affirmation IS conversion therapy - promoting the sterilisation and cutting off of healthy body parts of gender nonconforming children and YP is not progressive, it's deeply homophobic - as anyone whose watched Susie Green (former CEO of Mermaids) TED talk can see.

There are two body types, and any kind of personality can be found in either one.

full informed consent would include discussions around future healthcare and all complication, they're not going to outlaw these happening.

"Informed consent" is not the same as "exploratory therapy". "Informed consent" is the only the bare minimum needed for surgery. And as you say, even that bare minimum Informed consent doesn't happen adequately too often.

The worry about a poorly drafted conversion therapy bill is that adults will have to prove that they are not doing conversion therapy, or risk losing their child, or their ability to practise, or even go to prison. When conversion therapy is so poorly defined parents and teachers and carers and therapists will run scared of doing anything that isn't stated to be allowed - and the only thing that's stated to be allowed is affirmation. That worries me, I think it should worry you too.

Once the genitals and the body begin to be modified by puberty blockers and hormones, the effects are lifelong in many instances.

Kiera Bell is another who has spoken widely about the effects of her 'transition'.