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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Complications from trans surgery!

586 replies

Ihatedonuts · 16/01/2023 20:20

I know it's a daily mail article but I can't help thinking. We only ever hear positive stories but the figures tell us this. I really hope the men and woman are getting the support they need from these complications. 🥺

Half of trans surgery patients suffer pain, sexual issues years later mol.im/a/11629421 via dailym.ai/android

OP posts:
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AlisonDonut · 17/01/2023 16:45

For example, if you say 'lupron', 'puberty blockers' and use the word 'castration' in the same sentence on here, the post will be deleted.

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:45

Glinner is Graham Linehan. Substack is the name of the type of website he posts on. He also hosts other people's work, there's a recent article from a parent who 'deprogrammed' their child, by recognising trans ideology as akin to being a teensy bit c*ltish (MN is a little bit ticklish about that word).

*u

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:46

littlelid · 17/01/2023 16:35

Yes I agree. It's the same with any operation etc. If there needs to be an inquiry or something so be it.

Have a read of the First Do No Harm report

www.immdsreview.org.uk/downloads/IMMDSReview_Web.pdf

Lack of information needed for true informed consent is a massive problem. I am actually doing an Mres around informed consent as I feel so strongly about it.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/01/2023 16:46

littlelid · 17/01/2023 16:35

What's Glinner and Substack

Glinner is Graham Linehan, the comedy writer. Glinner is the name he uses on Twitter. Substack is a blogging website, I believe.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:51

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:38

@JusteanBiscuits I think I kind of agree with you. Gender, in so far as it exists at all, isn't black and white. Sex on the other hand is black and white, male and female even taking dsd's into account. I don't understand your animal kingdom digression, you surely don't mean.....clownfish!?

Better mental health support seems so obvious to me, I think it's inarguable but definitely not affirmation only.

One example in animal kingdom: For a number of species of reptile their gender is determined by temperature and length of incubation. This leads to some hatching chromosomally male, but with female sexual characteristics, and visa versa. Just one example.

The desperate need for more trained counsellors is vital.

Dixiechickonhols · 17/01/2023 16:51

It’s so new and experimental though that all risks aren’t known.
I also very much agree with previous comments about language. If you are young and perhaps operating at a younger age intellectually you are told you are getting a vagina that’s what you assume. I only discovered what a fistula was as a late teen reading at article in Marie Claire about a surgeon operating on girls in an African country after they had been ostracised with fistulas caused by child marriage and long unassisted labour. That article sprang to mind - this dr was repairing fistulas now some drs create them.

PoIIyPandemonium · 17/01/2023 16:52

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 16:52

Mind you, if legislation banning "conversion therapy" includes "gender identity" and is passed in the UK Parliament, won't warning about the downsides of "gender affirming" surgery become illegal?

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 16:52

One example in animal kingdom: For a number of species of reptile their gender is determined by temperature and length of incubation. This leads to some hatching chromosomally male, but with female sexual characteristics, and visa versa. Just one example.

Dear god. This is bollocks.

TheKeatingFive · 17/01/2023 16:53

For a number of species of reptile their gender is determined by temperature and length of incubation. This leads to some hatching chromosomally male, but with female sexual characteristics, and visa versa. Just one example

Humans are mammals however. What relevance is this?

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:54

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 16:52

Mind you, if legislation banning "conversion therapy" includes "gender identity" and is passed in the UK Parliament, won't warning about the downsides of "gender affirming" surgery become illegal?

Conversion therapy is not about highlighting risks. At all.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:55

TheKeatingFive · 17/01/2023 16:53

For a number of species of reptile their gender is determined by temperature and length of incubation. This leads to some hatching chromosomally male, but with female sexual characteristics, and visa versa. Just one example

Humans are mammals however. What relevance is this?

It was ONE example.

But my main point was that we need far more counsellors who are trained in this area to provide adequate, long term support.

clutchingatpearls · 17/01/2023 16:55

MyLittleSausageDog · 17/01/2023 16:27

I can’t say I care. Anyone that isn’t happy in their body is never going to be happy in one of the opposite sex anyway 🤷‍♀️

Is it just because the kids involved are mostly gay or autistic?
Utterly crass.

cosyblanketsquares · 17/01/2023 16:56

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:45

Glinner is Graham Linehan. Substack is the name of the type of website he posts on. He also hosts other people's work, there's a recent article from a parent who 'deprogrammed' their child, by recognising trans ideology as akin to being a teensy bit c*ltish (MN is a little bit ticklish about that word).

*u

Thank you. My internet just dropped out and I had to grapple with restarting lap top and connecting up again.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:57

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 16:52

One example in animal kingdom: For a number of species of reptile their gender is determined by temperature and length of incubation. This leads to some hatching chromosomally male, but with female sexual characteristics, and visa versa. Just one example.

Dear god. This is bollocks.

Why not discuss the need to much improved access to psychological support?

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2023 16:57

The following is the first 21 points on how consent must be established to be valid from the Department for Health dated 2004. I believe new guidelines have come after this, but it's an interesting read on principles because it raises some questions. I will let others comment. Some are pretty glaring in terms of 'sex change' operations especially involving vulnerable children and adults (notably with autism)

Valid consent

  1. For consent to be valid, it must be given voluntarily by an appropriately informed person who has the capacity to consent to the intervention in question (this will be the patient or someone with parental responsibility for a patient under the age of 18, someone authorised to do so under a Lasting Power of Attorney (LPA) or someone who has the authority to make treatment decisions as a court appointed deputy). Acquiescence where the person does not know what the intervention entails is not ‘consent’.

Does the person have capacity?
2. The Mental Capacity Act 2005 defines a person who lacks capacity as a person who
is unable to make a decision for themselves because of an impairment or disturbance
in the functioning of their mind or brain. It does not matter if the impairment or
disturbance is permanent or temporary. A person lacks capacity if:

• they have an impairment or disturbance (for example a disability, condition or
trauma or the effect of drugs or alcohol) that affects the way their mind or brain works, and

• that impairment or disturbance means that they are unable to make a specific
decision at the time it needs to be made.

  1. An assessment of a person’s capacity must be based on their ability to make a specific decision at the time it needs to be made, and not their ability to make decisions in general. A person is unable to make a decision if they cannot do one or more of the following things:

• understand the information given to them that is relevant to the decision
• retain that information long enough to be able to make the decision
• use or weigh up the information as part of the decision-making process
• communicate their decision – this could be by talking or using sign language and
includes simple muscle movements such as blinking an eye or squeezing a hand.

  1. People may have capacity to consent to some interventions but not to others, or may have capacity at some times but not others. Under the Mental Capacity Act, a person must be assumed to have capacity unless it is established that they lack capacity. If there is any doubt, then the healthcare professional should assess the capacity of the patient to take the decision in question. This assessment and the conclusions drawn from it should be recorded in the patient’s notes. Guidance on assessing capacity is given in chapter 4 of the Mental Capacity Act (2005) Code of Practice.

  2. A person’s capacity to consent may be temporarily affected by factors such as confusion, panic, shock, fatigue, pain or medication. However, the existence of such
    factors should not lead to an automatic assumption that the person does not have the capacity to consent.

  3. Capacity should not be confused with a healthcare professional’s assessment of the reasonableness of the person’s decision. Under the Mental Capacity Act and the common law, a person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision merely because they make an unwise decision. A person is entitled to make a decision
    which may be perceived by others to be unwise or irrational, as long as they have the capacity to do so.

  4. However, if the decision that appears irrational is based on a misperception of reality,
    as opposed to a different value system to that of the health practitioner – for example a patient who, despite the obvious evidence, denies that his foot is gangrenous, or a patient with anorexia nervosa who is unable to comprehend their failing physical condition – then the patient may not be able to comprehend, weigh or make use of the relevant information and hence may lack the capacity to make the decision in question.

  5. The Mental Capacity Act also requires that all practical and appropriate steps are
    taken to enable a person to make the decision themselves. These steps include the

following:
• Providing relevant information. For example, if there is a choice, has information
been given on the alternatives?
• Communicating in an appropriate way. For example, could the information be
explained or presented in a way that is easier for the person to understand?
• Making the person feel at ease. For example, are there particular times of the day
when a person’s understanding is better?
• Supporting the person. For example, can anyone else help or support the person

to understand information and to make a choice?

  1. Guidance on how people should be helped to make their own decisions is given in chapter 3 of the Mental Capacity Act (2005) Code of Practice.

Is the consent given voluntarily?
10. To be valid, consent must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure or
undue influence being exerted on the person either to accept or refuse treatment.

Such pressure can come from partners or family members, as well as health or care
practitioners. Practitioners should be alert to this possibility and where appropriate should arrange to see the person on their own in order to establish that the decision is truly their own.

  1. The test of capacity is set out in the Mental Capacity Act (see paragraph 2 above).
    Once it has been determined that a person has the capacity to make a particular
    decision at a particular time, a further requirement (under the common law) for that
    consent to be valid is that it must be given voluntarily and freely, without pressure
    or undue influence being exerted upon them.

  2. When people are seen and treated in environments where involuntary detention may

be an issue, such as prisons and mental hospitals, there is a potential for treatment
offers to be perceived coercively, whether or not this is the case. Coercion invalidates
consent, and care must be taken to ensure that the person makes decisions freely.

Coercion should be distinguished from providing the person with appropriate
reassurance concerning their treatment, or pointing out the potential benefits of treatment for the person’s health. However, threats such as withdrawal of any privileges, loss of remission of sentence for refusing consent or using such matters to
induce consent may well invalidate the consent given, and are not acceptable.

Has the person received sufficient information?
13. To give valid consent, the person needs to understand the nature and purpose of
the procedure. Any misrepresentation of these elements will invalidate consent.

Where relevant, information about anaesthesia should be given alongside information
about the procedure itself.

  1. It is particularly important that a person is aware of the situation when students or trainees carry out procedures to further their own education. Where the procedure will further the person’s care – for example taking a blood sample for testing – then, assuming the student is appropriately trained in the procedure, the fact that it is carried out by a student does not alter the nature and purpose of the procedure.

It is therefore not a legal requirement to tell the person that the clinician is a student,
although it would always be good practice to do so. In contrast, where a student proposes to conduct a physical examination that is not part of the person’s care then it is essential to explain that the purpose of the examination is to further the student’s training, and to seek consent for that to take place.

  1. Although informing people of the nature and purpose of procedures enables valid consent to be given as far as any claim of battery is concerned, this is not sufficient to fulfil the legal duty of care to the person.

Failure to provide other relevant
information may render the practitioner liable to an action for negligence if a
person subsequently suffers harm as a result of the treatment received.

  1. The requirements of the legal duty to inform patients continues to develop in
    case law. In 1985, the House of Lords decided in the Sidaway case that the legal standard to be used when deciding whether adequate information had been given to a patient should be the same as that used when judging whether a doctor had been
    negligent in their treatment or care of a patient: a doctor would not be considered negligent if their practice conformed to that of a responsible body of medical opinion held by practitioners skilled in the field in question. This is known as the
    'Bolam test’. Whether the duty of care had been satisfied was therefore primarily a matter of medical opinion. However, Sidaway also stated that it was open to the courts to decide that information about a particular risk was so obviously necessary that it would be negligent not to provide it, even if a ‘responsible body’ of medical opinion would not have done so.

  2. Since Sidaway, judgments in a number of negligence cases (relating both to the
    provision of information and to the standard of treatment given) have shown that
    courts are willing to be critical of a ‘responsible body’ of medical opinion. It is now clear that the courts will be the final arbiter of what constitutes responsible practice, although the standards set by the healthcare professions for their members will still be influential. In Chester v Afshar, a majority of the House of Lords held that a neurosurgeon who failed to warn a patient of the small risk of injury inherent in surgery, even if properly performed, was liable to the patient when that risk materialised, even though the risk was not increased by the failure to warn and thepatient had not shown that she would never have had an operation carrying the same
    risk.The Lords departed from the traditional ‘but for’ test of causation on the basis that, exceptionally, policy and justice required a modification to causation principles.

The fundamental principle underlying the decision was the right of a patient to make
an informed choice as to whether – and if so, when and by whom – to be operated on.

  1. In considering what information to provide, the health practitioner should try
    to ensure that the person is able to make an informed judgement on whether to give or withhold consent. Case law on this issue is evolving. It is therefore advisable to inform the person of any ‘material’ or ‘significant’ risks or unavoidable risks, even if small, in the proposed treatment; any alternatives to it; and the risks incurred by doing nothing. A Court of Appeal judgment stated that it will normally be the responsibility of the doctor to inform a patient of ‘a significant risk which would affect the judgment of a reasonable patient’. Following Chester v Afshar, it is advisable that healthcare professionals give information about all significant possible
    adverse outcomes and make a record of the information given.

  2. The GMC provides guidance on the type of information that patients may need to
    know before making a decision, and recommends that doctors should do their best to find out about patients’ individual needs and priorities when providing information about treatment options. It advises that discussions should focus on the patient’s ‘individual situation and risk to them’ and sets out the importance of providing the
    information about the procedure and associated risks in a balanced way and checking
    that patients have understood the information given. BMA guidance advises that if in doubt about the amount of information to give a patient, doctors ‘should contact their hospital lawyers or their medical defence organisation’.

  3. In the very rare event that the healthcare professional believes that to follow the
    guidance in paragraphs 18 and 19 in full will cause the patient serious harm, the
    GMC guidance states that this view, and the reasons for it, should be recorded in the patient’s notes. When such concerns arise it is advisable to discuss the issue within the team caring for the patient. In individual cases the courts may accept such a justification but would examine it with great care. The mere fact that the patient might become upset by hearing the information, or might refuse treatment, is not sufficient to act as a justification.

  4. Some people may wish to know very little about the treatment that is being proposed.
    If information is offered and declined, it is good practice to record this fact in the
    notes. However, it is possible that individuals’ wishes may change over time, and it is important to provide opportunities for them to express this. GMC and BMA guidance encourages doctors to explain to patients the importance of knowing the options open to them while respecting a person’s wish not to know, and states that basic information should always be provided about what the treatment aims to achieve and what it will involve.

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 16:59

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:57

Why not discuss the need to much improved access to psychological support?

You brought the "example" of reptile "gender" (this is not a thing) with pseudoscientific gobbledegook.

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:59

No species of mammal can change sex, it's determined at conception regardless of the temperature of incubation. If the temperature is wrong the foetus may be miscarried but it will not change sex.

You'd be surprised what some tras consider conversion therapy.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:02

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2023 16:59

No species of mammal can change sex, it's determined at conception regardless of the temperature of incubation. If the temperature is wrong the foetus may be miscarried but it will not change sex.

You'd be surprised what some tras consider conversion therapy.

Like I said, it was just an aside. But yay, lets discuss this in detail rather than anything that could actually help people.

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 17:02

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 16:54

Conversion therapy is not about highlighting risks. At all.

No? Why would highlighting risks not be framed by some as terrorising individuals in an attempt to change their gender identity? And thus contrary to the proposed legislation.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:03

Kucinghitam · 17/01/2023 16:59

You brought the "example" of reptile "gender" (this is not a thing) with pseudoscientific gobbledegook.

are you saying gender isn't a thing in reptiles?? oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/temperature-dependent.html#:~:text=In%20most%20species%2C%20gender%20is,dependent%20sex%20determination%2C%20or%20TSD.

But really really excellent deflection from ideas that could help!!! I'm pretty sure none of you actually want to help young people struggling with their gender identity. You just want it hidden and banned.

clutchingatpearls · 17/01/2023 17:04

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 16:52

Mind you, if legislation banning "conversion therapy" includes "gender identity" and is passed in the UK Parliament, won't warning about the downsides of "gender affirming" surgery become illegal?

Yes, there is a very real danger it will.

So how do these desperately vulnerable young people get actual exploratory therapy? Answer: they won't.

Hadalifeonce · 17/01/2023 17:04

Years ago, I saw something about people with body dismorphic problems and demanding limbs be removed to help them. Not one person had such surgery, all were recommended to see mental health professionals. How is this any different?

TheKeatingFive · 17/01/2023 17:06

Like I said, it was just an aside.

Why bring it up though? It's definitely irrelevant. It sounds like it could also be bollocks.

The only reason for talking about this is to obfuscate and confuse the debate. Humans can't change sex. We know this. Reptiles are irrelevant to this fact.

JusteanBiscuits · 17/01/2023 17:06

Chersfrozenface · 17/01/2023 17:02

No? Why would highlighting risks not be framed by some as terrorising individuals in an attempt to change their gender identity? And thus contrary to the proposed legislation.

The law will be clear on what is, and isn't, conversion therapy. Highlighting risks is not part of what they want to ban. You talk as if you think conversion therapy shouldn't be banned?