Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

[Moomoola]

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

I do remember that thread but not enough about it in detail to search.

I think it got deleted because reasons, can't quite remember.

Hi Moomoola 🍫☕️
I really think you should book those flights and spend some really good quality time with ds (and dh if you can get him to come).
Sending love and strength

I have followed this post since the start. You sound like a lovely mum . I really hope it gets better for you all soon.
But realistically she will probably take a few years to realise you are not the bad guys . My sister moved in with me when she was 17 . She had 6 years of ignoring my parents and making bad decisions. Ignoring all advise. Then re built her relationship with our parents and it's much better then ever .
Maybe just go back to work and try to make home life for you and your ds the best you can . She will come round eventually. She probably just needs time and space.
And like others have said if you give her no ammunition to make you the bad guys then she may move on from it all.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4116061-my-16yo-ds-and-his-girlfriend-and-her-mum?page=1

here’s the first part of the Australian thread. there are three parts I think. Crossing my fingers your can resolve things with your daughter.

Age 17 you can't legally march her home. OK I'm in Scotland where 17 year olds go iff to university but even in England I suspect a court would side with her choosing her place if abode.
Time to give her less headspace and get on with your life and look after your son.
Id be frustrated and angry with x too in your place but at her age there is little you can do. Also your house sounds a sad mopey place at the moment. Mentally reframe it as her moving away and start getting on with stuff and doing stuff you and your son enjoy

I’m going to encourage you to do nothing much at all until after you’ve spent some time with your brother @Moomoola - you need that time for you and DS, plus you can get all the deets from your bro.

Glad that your DH got off his arse and did something himself rather than just barking orders at you!
It’s not something I would’ve personally recommended but fuck it, it’s done now and if it shook some stuff up in the other household then perhaps he’s right to have done it (just don’t expect an immediate result, stuff might need to rumble about in the other family before it reaches a crescendo/dies off like a damp squib).

Obvs I cannot know anything about the other family but from my interactions with many other parents of ROGD kids and my own family situation I would say it’s possible that X’s parent’s alcoholism could preexist and is a driving factor in X’s behaviour (trans identity is an excellent tool in a subconscious power/attention grab) or mum’s mental health is wobbly because frankly, dealing with this controlling shit is enough to make any of us have a breakdown!
While it’s a hard thing to admit our family systems and our own selves (as parents and as partners in relationships our children observe) do, in many cases, play a role, so I’m sure the family dynamics in the other household are complicated and not much of a happy glitter family underneath the rainbow veneer.

Please try to take it easy on the wine though - I absolutely understand the desire to find refuge in a nice vino at the end of a stressful day but it is so easy to tip into reliance - besides, while it deffo makes the evenings nicer it can make the mornings far worse!

Are you managing to get a bit of exercise in? A swim at the local leisure centre is a great way to shake some cobwebs off and involves an enforced no-phone period. I very much recommend!

If DH is insistent on packing up DD’s stuff and dropping it off, I would consider dropping it at an intermediary place - with a neutral friend or relative.
That way DD will have to interact with another adult in a mature manner (turning up to collect) rather than being able to hole up inside X’s mum’s house and have it all conveniently delivered, reinforcing their bunker mentality.

I wouldn't remove her stuff. She could see that as you throwing her out and it may make it harder for her to return when she wants to. It's very likely she will return if the door is kept open. I wouldn't make life easy for her in her new abode no cash hand outs etc but would make it clear she is welcome back

Hello @Moomoola

I've been away for a bit, and thinking of you! Sorry to hear it's gone a bit crazy. The panto villain stuff is outside your control. You're still doing a fantastic job.

It's good that DH made that that effort, even if it didn't turn out as he hoped. My pigs-eye view of how this works is that girlfriend/othermum yank DD's chain, DD yanks DH's chain, and then DH yanks your chain(!) And you are trying to keep the peace and do the best for everyone. Your DH is struggling in a situation where he tries things, they don't always work, at best it's steps forward then steps back and progress can be invisible or easily swept away. Equally, he is not suddenly going to manage his anxiety in a less aggressive and controlling way, or instantly change his parenting to be calmer more positive and less reactive. So that's going to be a slow process with slipbacks too.

It is very positive for yourself and your family each time you can stick to your own agenda despite everything that tries to derail you. One important decision you already made is to go on holiday with DS at Easter. So, stay on track for that. Maybe you feel stymied about the holiday because there is no best decision, 9 days or 11 days, both are good decisions. Book it and then it's done.

And as for going to back to work - when would you like to go back? Sounds as if DH was just expressing his own helpless frustration, it doesn't really sound as if you working will make a difference to DD's situation. And it's not forever - if you find you're struggling, you could stop again. Maybe going back to work is something to think about while you're away.

Also, wtf is your MILs problem? She needs to (and I HATE this phrase) wind her neck in re: what you and DS are doing - her opinion on your holiday destination is entirely unhelpful!

Hi @Moomoola , Ive been following this thread from the beginning. I have teens and this is my worst nightmare and I feel like I've suffered your pain on this journey. I don't have the experience of others on this thread but a couple of thoughts which I hope others will dismiss immediately if I'm totally wrong.

X's mother

It feels like something weird going on here. I can only go on your second-hand words, but she seems oddly passive, oddly happy to accept full costs of another adult person in her home, oddly unbothered by the fact she is, in a practical sense, enabling massive friction in another family. I have wondered throughout if she is on a parallel journey with her own DD, and this scenario is one she is tolerating for some reason in the hope it will play out and resolve something in her own DD...? The latest reference to her mental health also feels significant. It feels like she might be dominated by her DD massively. Somethings not right. Have you or your DH considered approaching the father at all? Asking for a father to father chat? Is he as controlled by X as she is? Are they tolerating all this for a reason we can't see?

X

It definitely feels like coercive control and gaslighting. Your brother's comments are interesting too. It shows X loves a fight, loves the drama, is consumed by the 'activist' element of this cult. I think every comment you make is twisted analysed injected with rage and regurgitated. Your villainy isn't limited to your opinions on trans issues, she's cast you as villains in terms of parenting, your actual lifelong relationship with your DD. How much of the allure of your DD is the drama? What happens if the rope just suddenly goes slack? They are seventeen, what are the odds this relationship lasts forever? What happens if x finds another victim to rescue and save? Where does that leave DD? Still living in the same home while x embarks on a new relationship? Unlikely.

Your DD

I think (possibly) the security of your love for her partly supports this adventure. She's taking so much for granted, and her characterisation of you is unkind.Yes, she is a child, yes she is being controlled, but she is also behaving badly. I think as well as every contact being 'stressful' or 'unwanted', it's also a reminder to her she has options. Both sides want her: you and x.

Way forward

I can't believe I'm thinking this, because this would be unbelievably hard for me to do with my own DD. But I'm thinking you, your DH, your son need to focus on the three of you now, or you will end up like x's mum. YOUR lives dominated by one person (X via your DD) and this toxic harmful ideology.

I would consider writing a letter to DD.

Start with a complete expression of unconditional love. Tell her you are missing her. Tell her to know with 100% certainty that no matter what her choices are, she always has a home with you and your love. Tell her that no matter how she feels in the future - scared, alone, shame, guilt - that you will welcome her with love and provide her with a safe secure space.

Then tell her you accept that she is seventeen. That even though she is still, to you, your beloved child, you accept that you have very little control or influence over her choices or decisions. This is the tough part - tell her you recognise you need to let go. She's on her own, but she can always always come back. Stress this massively.

Tell her your not letting go because you've given up on her, but because you believe your words and love are being manipulated to fuel a drama and make things worse. That this does not serve her well and it is having a terrible impact on the three of you as well.

I would tell her, that because she's seventeen, she is entitled to know the raw truth. That you've given up your job because you've been so concerned about her and have wanted to be available to her; that DH is falling apart, oscillating between fear and anger coupled with work stress; that her brother has retreated into games and silence; that home doesn't feel like a great place right now. Everyone is miserable. I would also add in that you have zero doubt x will tell her this is all emotional blackmail - but tell her she needs to understand that this is why you are pulling back. Not because you are abandoning her, but because life and your home needs to feel normal again. Tell her you've started family therapy and you are now focussing on rebuilding. If she ever chooses to come home, it will be to a welcoming happy healthy home.

If this was my DD, I'd tell her I had three huge fears: one that she'd do something she'd regret for the rest of her life that would permanently change her body and cause her lifelong emotional distress, but that you recognise this love for her and concern is being cast as intolerance and hate. Second, that you are terrified you've lost her and that she's rejected her family, but you now believe continuing to engage makes things worse. Third, that she'd end up in abusive relationship.

I would tell her you fear that the third might be the case. That you fear x is controlling her, manipulating your words against you, conjuring up evidence of villainy out of nothing. Tell her the biggest red flag of coercive control is when someone tries to split their partner away from their family and friends. Tell her to be wary of demands to read her texts on her phone, demands to always be present when meeting other friends. Tell her to be mindful that at the end of the day you are a big- standard normal loving family, not hateful, abusive etc. Tell her she should know that deep down herself.

I would give her a cheap phone and store on it your and DHs numbers, woman's aid and any other numbers that might help her. I would ask her to hide this phone, keep it safe, but see it as a future lifeline if she ever needs it.

Then I'd say goodbye. Reiterate love. Tell her it's up to her from now on to keep in touch if she wishes too, to ask to meet if she wants to. Tell her if you hear nothing from her you will restrict yourself to a single text once a month which you will use to update her on the family.

Gosh - that's long.

wow so thoughtful. It's almost too hard to read, but thanks for posting it. I hope I never find myself in that position where I need to call on wisdom like that.

Flowers @Moomoola , you are going through a lot.

Woh, just checked in. I’m amazed at how supportive and wonderful you all are.thank you so very much. I need to digest all this and get on so I’ll re read this evening. But definitely food for thought. Crumbs.

Wow @wednesdaynamesep that's so amazing and insightful. Wonderful advice.

I'm so glad it doesn't sound totally ridiculous. I actually stopped because I had to go out but I'll continue now. (You can tell how much I've been thinking about what I'd do if this was me).

You need to be able to give her this letter and phone away from 'x'. I'd contact her and tell her I want to meet her for ten minutes alone. That I want to give her something before you go away. Assure her no heavy chat. But x mustn't be there. Id buy her a lovely gift. Then when you meet, give her the gift and the letter and the phone. Have a cup of tea and leave. Ask her to stay a bit longer to read the letter privately first. Tell her you'd prefer it if she didn't share it, but accept that she might. However ask her, as her mother, to keep the phone private. That this is important to you. I would also tell her that you plan to write to x's parents when you get back from holiday to finalise things and keep them posted about what you've said to her. Then tell her how much she means and you'll send her a family update when back from your holiday.

If you get back from holiday to a changed situation you can re-think. I don't think you will though. So my last thing would be to write to the parents telling them you e communicated with DD and explain in broad brush strokes what you've said to her.

But I'd also go further, and ask them to reflect on the impact they've had on your family, and how much damage they've done by enabling this. Id ask them to imagine their own DD doing this to them, and imagine how they'd feel losing their child because a third party has manipulated and concocted abuse. Remind them that they are the adults, but because you've been forced out of your child's life, they are now the adults who will have the most significant influence over choices and decisions that could affect the rest of her life. I would also state that you believe there's an element of coercive control that their DD has over your DD, and coercive control that results in devastating outcomes could be construed as criminal (am I going too far?). Ask them to reflect very seriously on what's going on, and to be the adults. But tell them - whether they do engage or not - you've made it very clear to DD that you love her, but that you need to step back because this has damaged everyone in your family and you need to re-build and heal. Make sure they know she can come back with unconditional love at any time.

I'd get DH to meet the other father to get a feeling for wtf is going on in his house. Are they complying because they're worried they'll lose their DD, or are they fuckwits?
Then hand over the letter. Assume though that he might not show his wife, so post a copy to her as well.

Then after all that focus 100% on you DH and DS. Once a month send her a that give her family news. But nothing more than that.

I think 'x' will go ballistic. But without any further contacts to stew on or manipulate, their relationship will have to be based on something else. Hopefully it stops being exciting without drama.

FWIW - I loathe x with a passion and I'm not even involved in this. All the best to all of you, and I really hope you can find your way to normalcy again.

wednesdaynamesep· Today 10:12*

Everything you say is so thoughtful and wise, and this following part very important:

If this was my DD, I'd tell her I had three huge fears: one that she'd do something she'd regret for the rest of her life that would permanently change her body and cause her lifelong emotional distress, but that you recognise this love for her and concern is being cast as intolerance and hate. Second, that you are terrified you've lost her and that she's rejected her family, but you now believe continuing to engage makes things worse. Third, that she'd end up in abusive relationship.

I would tell her you fear that the third might be the case. That you fear x is controlling her, manipulating your words against you, conjuring up evidence of villainy out of nothing. Tell her the biggest red flag of coercive control is when someone tries to split their partner away from their family and friends. Tell her to be wary of demands to read her texts on her phone, demands to always be present when meeting other friends. Tell her to be mindful that at the end of the day you are a big- standard normal loving family, not hateful, abusive etc. Tell her she should know that deep down herself.

I would give her a cheap phone and store on it your and DHs numbers, woman's aid and any other numbers that might help her. I would ask her to hide this phone, keep it safe, but see it as a future lifeline if she ever needs it.

Then I'd say goodbye. Reiterate love. Tell her it's up to her from now on to keep in touch if she wishes too, to ask to meet if she wants to. Tell her if you hear nothing from her you will restrict yourself to a single text once a month which you will use to update her on the family.

This seems good such good advice,
might be possible though that No 3 said out loud right now in this first flush of love and determination on her part might make her dig in?

I totally bow to the wisdom of others with more experience in this. It may well be unwise to say this now.

In my mind though, if I was stepping back completely, I'd want her to be alert upfront to signs of abuse going forward. I would be wary this might be my last chance to say things that need to be said. It contextualises womens aid number on the phone. If things go pear shaped, mum might not be the first point of contact for all sorts of reasons.

This thread has really made me think I need to sit down and teach my own DC about 'coercive control' and what the red flags are. Difference between good friends, bad friends, and abusive friends.

I was thinking it sounds very similar in a lot of ways so thanks for finding it

@Moomoola That goose-stepping little dictator has been weaponizing her mental health for so long, she's become an expert at it. People like that are extremely vulnerable to narcissistic injury (https://psychcentral.com/lib/narcissistic-injuries-what-they-are-and-how-to-protect-yourself-from-them) when undermined or embarrassed (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/communication-success/201807/8-signs-of-narcissistic-rage). I'd call the mother again, keep reaching out to her as a mother talking about children. It clearly infuriates the gf because it upsets this balance of power she's established. She's calculated and manipulative, which means you can only win by doing it back. You have the upper hand in this because you're not a total garbage person who will lose their shit when undermined or gone up against. People will notice this and start to ask questions, even if just to themselves. I'd call the mother again and be friendly enough, like she hasn't lost control of her household and you're just two parents rolling their eyes at their exasperating children. If you can, be jokey with her. Practice this conversation and think of every reaction an angry little tyrant can twist, and write down a comeback to it. Be prepared. Tell the mother what you were told, tell her you're sure this is hard on her too and ask how she's holding up. To your daughter, I'd acknowledge that your relationship isn't healthy, but that you're working on speaking up for yourself and working on your self-confidence, and that includes not allowing yourself to be talked down to. I've gone through situations like this before with relatives, it does turn into a chess game. It's completely exhausting. If you're ever able to talk to her more one on one, feel free to reach out to me. I went through a very messy process of self-deprogramming from identifying as ftm.

I’m no therapist but if X’s mum is an alcoholic and suffers bad mental health it may be the case that X was forced to step up and parent herself. Her mothers passivity is probably nothing new at all and this may explain a lot of X’s anger and aggression, because she has had to take responsibility for herself in age inappropriate ways. This makes me wonder what is behind X’s desire to transition, she has obviously been dealing with trauma with an alcoholic, apparently neglectful parent.

Psychologically it may be much less painful to declare the rest of the world as hostile and dangerous, rather than acknowledge the danger, hostility and fear is right in her own home. It’s easier to frame the outside world as the problem and not her own lack of parenting.

Her co-dependency and dominant behavior may be a learned dysfunctional pattern of a young child out of her depth trying to control her world.

A more typical family home of mum, dad, brother etc. could be alien to her own experience and she may have resentment at how much is available to DD compared to herself. It’s interesting how she seems to be bringing DD down into a situation of having less options, in other words more like her own position.

It just seems the one who needs the most intervention and help is X.

I think wednesdaynamesep’s advice is pretty solid. At some point you need to take a step back and focus on the family you still have or risk damage to those relationship’s too. Make it clear that your DD can return any time she wishes but that you can’t keep playing these games forever. You’re not the demon ‘x’ is making you out to be, but anything and everything you do is going to be twisted by ‘x’ to make you seem like one.

I don’t know if this will help at all, but when I was stuck in a coercive relationship in my late teens/early twenties, it was my mum who pulled me out of it. She came round one day when she knew my then-partner would be at work and convinced me to go shopping with her like we used to. I know now that she did it because she wanted the chance to talk to me when he was not around and he had managed to separate me from everyone I’d cared about so successfully that she barely ever saw me.

She made it clear that she wasn’t going to judge or interfere—it was my life and my choice to live it how I wanted—but told me that she would always be there when I needed her. But the one thing that stands out to me in my memory, and probably the most influential thing she could have said, was her telling me point blank that she didn’t recognize the person I’d become with him. It wasn’t said with malice or judgement, just a simple, plain observation: I was not happy, I had lost tons of confidence, he was driving a wedge between me and anyone I’d been close, and she pointed out how coercive the relationship was.

That ‘outsider’ viewpoint was a huge revelation to me, even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear at the time. It broke through the whole ‘they don’t care about you’ lie and helped me see what was really going on. It made me question the way things were when I was with him and really think about whether I was actually happy. I began to see what he was doing myself and not long after found my way out. Without that brutal honesty I’m not sure I would ever have realized the depths of what that relationship was doing to me or found the courage to get out.

I think if you lay out to her how you feel in a matter-of-fact way, and head off the accusations of emotional blackmail that ‘x’ will almost certainly try to twist it into, just hearing things from your point of view may lay a seed or two of doubt. And at the very least, she will know that you are there for her if and when she’s ready to come back.

Thanks for finding that Wallace.

Your mum sounds amazing @Witchofthekitchen

@Witchofthekitchen

But the one thing that stands out to me in my memory, and probably the most influential thing she could have said, was her telling me point blank that she didn’t recognize the person I’d become with him. It wasn’t said with malice or judgement, just a simple, plain observation: I was not happy, I had lost tons of confidence, he was driving a wedge between me and anyone I’d been close, and she pointed out how coercive the relationship was.

I recently listened to a podcast called 'Something was wrong' where her parents pulled her back from a totally bonkers coercive control relationship by doing a similar thing. In her case, one of the most impactful interventions came from her boss. Her mother had lunch with her boss (they knew each other socially) and they compared notes on how she'd changed. Hearing it from someone who knew her very well, an outsider to the family, really hit home. I wonder if brother could help here?

Link to the podcast

open.spotify.com/show/3GptGES42jdzOygpz7Qvf8?si=gIUKoUdnSAeWMWTYWUX7kQ

Thankyou everyone. D H and I are incredibly grateful for the fantastic advice and how much care you have all taken. Especially Wednesday. Well all of you, thank you.
And thanks for the Australian thread. I am reading through it. So hard for that family.
Amazing parallels. So I'm taking notes !

We are thinking how to write a letter but I just got the most awful text and now am so sad and confused.

I thought it would be fair to invite her to visit bro with me and DS at Easter - chance to step back as she's always telling me she has to do.
And I pointed out that DS would love it if she came ( first thing he asked) and if she's not careful she'll lose a good relationship with him.

I just got a long ranting text where I'm basically manipulative for mentioning DS.
It's so ranty and I'm not sure how much is being retro fitted into her life. I'm also not at all sure she's writing it on her own. It sounds as if she's worked herself up to a fury.

It's basically how home was a terrible situation etc etc. And a lot more etcs. She was in pain for so long but it was basically normalised. ( I'm guessing that is trans stuff).
She's got herself out of a situation where she was going to die.
It ends with I need to be patient and respect her boundaries.

I'm afraid DHs call to the mum went wrong, as predicted.
Then asking her to join DS and I has obviously set us back 30 steps. I'm so sad. I thought it would be fair to invite her.

This will crucify DH . Very tempted not to show him.
I'm so very sad and tired

Maybe I'll just answer with ' I'm very sorry you feel that way. As we chatted about before, it's good to chat about these things or they turn into huge misunderstandings for everyone concerned. Love mum'.

Or maybe now's the time to get on with the letter as suggested.

I don't understand as she's said it's been hard for her too. So why make it so hard?
I really do feel she's being brainwashed. What was a natural schism has been really manipulated.