Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

[Moomoola]

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

And I think it's important to be honest but also let her know NO family is perfect - that was one thing I really pulled from the professional counselors like Ayad and O'Malley - that young people often think their problems are so unique and unknowable, which further alienates them from loved ones. That's why trans is so seductive-there's always one more step in transitioning that will bring you closer to a euphoria which is elusive-but it's a false path because you aren't addressing your core issues, you use trans as an escape. Maybe your daughter fears growing up, fears an imperfect marriage as a woman and being with glitter family and being trans is an escape from the reality that life isn't a perfect path forward and we may be more like our moms than we want (heartbreaking but normal emotion at this age). Maybe you can tell her how life and relationships are a balance of good, neutral, bad and her path can be her own but it should be hers and not what her GF wants. And how you and your DH only want her health and happiness. She will have to recognize on her own the GF's lifestyle isn't healthy for her.

For the longest time I thought I was the only one that had a crazy family, then over time it gradually dawned on me that's actually normal.

Gosh, thank you born blonde, bez and delphinium
that’s such a conscise and practical summation delphinium that’s exactly what she was saying - she’s always feared growing up, she fears a relationship like mine ( yes! I know, we are dull and tired - just like my parents who were also trendy and exciting once, ..before ahem, expensive moody teens and mortgages, and And I NEVER wanted to be like them and yet here I am)
all of this too..Maybe you can tell her how life and relationships are a balance of good, neutral, bad and her path can be her own but it should be hers and not what her GF wants

and this NO family is perfect - that was one thing I really pulled from the professional counselors like Ayad and O'Malley - that young people often think their problems are so unique and unknowable, which further alienates them from loved ones
that’s a really good point. I think she’s convinced herself that dad is all that’s terrible.

and this! For the longest time I thought I was the only one that had a crazy family, then over time it gradually dawned on me that's actually normal
:) was thinking that today after talking to mad MIL.

thank you for not automatically saying LTB. Though there’s been many times when I’ve been tempted!

I'm a pretty strong feminist, with a lot of radical feminism values, yet 'LTB' isn't realistic nor always fair (all men have some forms of socialized bs patriarchal behavior and a separatist all-woman island isn't all that practical!) and it's not like we don't love men in our lives!

It's a lot healthier to point out to your DH when he's controlling and tell him how this undermines what he wants - which is to get DD back. If you LTB, he's still her dad, still your DS dad, his dynamic w/ DD isn't going to change if you change your marriage. Of course, if he really is abusive, I'm the first to shout LTB...but I'm not sure if I'm getting that vibe from you. Your DH could certainly use some therapy now, if just to help him control his emotions.

Do you have any cool pictures of you when you were young? Maybe show DD these? She might have fun seeing you all hip and youthful! My DD (18) loves this but DD 13 is more like 'meh' (she's too young).

And thanks everyone whose been with me through miles of posts!
im re reading everything (again!) and am finding the thoughtful, intelligent and kind responses really moving and helpful, especially when you have massive problems yourselves. It means a lot to see familiar names popping up several times. It’s a wierd feeling to feel listened to!
virtual cuppas and chocolate cake for all. Xxx
and a film and a jk podcast to listen to. Busy busy!

🌷💯🍵

Thanks delphinium we cross posted.
im so naive, I’m only now realising how radical we need to be just to stay still.
Thanks for the considered response re DH. A very calm, and reassuring one. I need a cool head atm. It’s always best to be cool, just tricky sometimes!
photos, great idea!
Gosh, families. You’re definitely not the only one bez
Massive respect to all mums. We bloody well rock.

Good news that DD agreed to meet!

Not meaning to pile on your DH - my own father could be difficult but wasn't abusive, and he was open to trying to trying to understand and change. Sometimes it takes people time to get their heads round it.

Use your own judgment about what to say to DD. You're doing really well! And my guess is that the more calm and firm you can sound about it to DH, the less pushback you'll get. He must be so scrared too. XX

This all sounds so positive!

Having a complex relationship with one’s father doesn’t mean the chap is actually an abuser - especially if the complications are revealed as part of the inevitable teenage struggle towards independence.

(same for complex relationships with mothers although that’s not my wheelhouse)

The teenage years are the beginning of seeing our parents as full human beings, with positive and negative traits (and their own childhood emotional baggage) rather than just ‘Mum’ & ‘Dad’ archetypes.

In relationships where mum has done quite a lot of swan work (paddling away under the surface of family life whilst keeping things looking quite serene on top) it probably feels quite shocking when we get the first glimpses of dad as a real person.
In time, with more context, we likely come around to seeing the positives again.
My own dad was quite absent via work, but 30 years later, I can appreciate that part of him (working class boy who left school at 14 and made something of himself) even if there were many years in between where I felt very resentful that he had never once been to a parents evening, a school play or one of my dance competitions.
Funnily enough, as a young child I often imagined he would pay me more attention if I were a boy who played competitive football, rather than a girl who could dance.

Now I can see that his relentless work schedule not only paid for all those dance lessons but meant my mum had time to take me/sew on endless shoe ribbons.

Bit of a shallow example really, but an illustration of the child-teen-adult take on the same situation.

FWIW:
My emotionally absent, workaholic father facilitated a life for us that was so much better than his own poverty stricken, post war childhood with way too many siblings to fit in a 3 bed council house, a habitual criminal dad (in and out of prison) and a mother who went blind young via untreated diabetes. He never really had a chance to learn proper emotional/nurturing skills.

Each generation wants something different for their own future, for their own eventual families, but we inevitably carry some of it forward even when we don’t want to! Luckily it does water down somewhat.

(I admit, I am myself am always attracted to working class men who excel in their careers! Despite knowing full-well that all that commitment to work makes them less available for family life 😬🤦‍♀️)

Have you had any more family therapy sessions yet? I really hope your DH can approach it in an open minded way - hopefully you, he and your two DC will have a long and happy future relationship after getting beyond this bump in the road, regardless of whether the trans thing sticks or not.

Hi cloglady yes, sorry to hear that - it’s what my dad did too, similar background, and from what DD said, ‘I don’t want stuff I want him to be interested ‘ it’s what has happened here too. Even down to the playing footy equivalent.
your poor parents, they have had a tough time. 💐 to both.
I don’t think we realise how much our parents do try to do the best they can.
Next Family therapy is a month away ( it’s a freebie so long waiting lists) I’m getting DH there by saying it will help them help DD. I hope DS is ok with it all. He seems to be vanishing into his phone/ computer completely.
I’ve asked on the other thread ( I do make things complicated!) but need more advice off you wise people..

DD has agreed to see me before a thing she and X are off to.
X was in the room and asked if she could come.
I texted yes etc. but am not sure how I feel about meeting someone who has aided so much distress.
I thought since she met my brother who is cool, maybe I’m now being re evaluated. I am fabulous after all!

DH asked if I’d thought it might be because she doesn’t want DD meeting me on my own. Given that last time we met DD was constantly texting X I think he may have a point.

I would very much appreciate your thoughts. A bit of me is like, too soon! I’ve only just got DD to chat more.

another bit thinks, be accepting! That will flummox the transphobe accusation.

another bit thinks I can do the chatty thing, but I want to bop her on the head. Am I supposed to just accept the crap they’ve put us through and be all ‘ nice to meet your partner’ am I encouraging DD to stay with X?

a bit of me thinks that DD would find it very hard to leave. She was alone with the mum in the flat while x worked. I really would not want to be doing that, in borrowed clothes. Yik. But I have a problem with being too nice and I think I’ve passed it on to DD.

least I’m allowed to see her!

You can bop her on the head at some future point in time, when your relationship is re established!
She’ll probably realise she deserves a bop herself one day (not until 24/25 tho).

Whatever the reason for X being present, just say yes.
If you say no it will give your DD an excuse to cancel the meet up and give X the opportunity to paint you as the bad guy again.
It’s possible that X’s behaviour up til now is driven by X genuinely believing you and DH are a pair of evil, controlling, transphobes rather than a family negotiating some difficult times after illness/bereavement and that coinciding with your DD’s hitting the often-difficult teenage years.

If it were me I would try and act like I was meeting my DC’s romantic interest in completely normal circumstances- a warm smile, a handshake, a hot chocolate at Costa and cake in a paper bag to take home.
Show X and your DD that you are a fully-rounded, caring human (not a Disney villain!) who loves both your DC and wants the best for them as they move towards their adult lives.

You could even thank X for giving your DD the confidence to get a part time job!

If X feels like X can trust you, X may well become less vigilant for perceived slights and signs of transphobia and relax enough that DD will feel able to see you more freely (and perhaps eventually, to move back home whilst continuing to date X).

If you refuse to meet X then you will just creat an adversarial situation where your DD is forced to choose between you and as X and X’s home currently seems like the safe option, it’s likely you’ll be the one who is rejected.

Maybe this whole thing is a massive misunderstanding caused by everyone’s projected emotional baggage and your DD feeling excluded while you’ve been busy with grief and your DH has been hiding at work?

X has no doubt been getting the same ‘your parents are boomers who hate you and are ruining your life’ messaging from the internet as your DD has - that X’s parents have managed to negotiate this phenomenon and keep their teen in the house might be more to do with them not having the really big life disruption events that your family has had?

I’m sure my DsD’s Gender stuff really took off as a result of her little sister’s cancer - the family was looking the other way and she felt alienated and lonely, this coincided with puberty and suddenly looking like a woman and getting cat called and she disappeared inside the trans identity as a combo of protective shell & maladaptive expression of her need for connection with her dad.

Seems to me that your daughter needs her fam (who have been dealing with some massive, earth shattering, unavoidable situations) and pushing you away is a similar protective shell. She doesn’t risk rejection/not getting her emotional needs met if she runs off and shelters inside another family’s life, a family who hasn’t got a grieving mum and a workaholic dad.

Apologies if that feels like an overstep - I’m not a professional and much of what I say here is a projection of my own experiences, so do keep that in mind.

Rooting for you!

Oh! And you can ask DD and X for advice on chivvying your DS out of his room - they will feel flattered and grown up to be asked and you will be acknowledging that their identities (teenagers who identify as on the transmasc spectrum) are closer to teenage boy than yours is (middle aged mum!)

By answering questions about your DS withdrawal and possible things to entice him out with, they may well accidentally give away things that they themselves are influenced by/thinking about/would like to experience.

Go in sideways!

Fab posts TheClogLady.
**Good to see you back (in a name I recognise).

I’m having lots of fun with topical name changes at present! Not an anonymity thing tho as I suspect my writing style and overshares are somewhat obvious 😆

MN seems to have a new function that makes it much easier to stick to one name per thread without having to manually correct to a previous name (which is easy to forget when typing on the go) so that’s v. useful!

@Moomoola I have a great relationship with DH but he isn’t good with some emotions, talking about them, or recognizing them in others. All our kids have got frustrated with him at times during their teens and thought he didn’t love them or care about them; but as they have got older they have recognized that he shows love in very different ways than me, but ways that are so important.

First they have recognized that he loves them, he does tell them and does respond to times they reach out to him and he is usually very calm and good natured. They have grown to understand how his love is shown by his actions, his commitment to his family, and how he is extremely hard working and provides everything we all need. Like many men he is very concerned about their safety. Recently I woke up as he was getting out of bed and getting dressed. I asked him where he was going and he said our DD 22 had just called him as she went out for the night in the middle of the city and her car wouldn’t start and it was 2am. She is at the local Uni and doesn’t live at home (we are in the suburbs of a big city in the USA). He didn’t think twice about getting out of bed and going straight out to help her. He doesn’t complain but always does what needs to be done at a very practical level. He is a constant problem solver.

He also has a lot of interests and hobbies. So recently our eldest has started pottery classes with him and now they spend a lot of time making stuff on their potters wheels (he bought her one for Christmas to put in her dorm room at Uni) and he fires it all in a kiln in the garage.

Our 16 yr old son took up the electric guitar recently (which my husband plays) and they practice together. All 3 kids will go to the gym and work out with their dad at different times.

My point is that love can look different in different people and we show our love in different ways. I don’t agree with people being hard on your DH as my husband would react in the same way, he would be agitated and worried about her safety and who she was with and I could definitely see my calm DH get very stressed and anxious worried about a DD who had left, didn’t want to see us and could potentially take serious opposite-sex hormones. Men in general can get very physically protective, they want to know they loved ones are safe and sound and want to do what they can to make that happen.

Maybe talk to your DD about the ways your DH loves her and the family in ways that are different than you and how sometimes we can do the wrong thing in our attempts to care for others. It’s hard for all parents when our kids are moving from childhood to be independent adults, but I have found with my own DH anyway that he is particularly concerned about the physical safety of our two DDs (22 & 19). I don’t think that’s a bad quality and I know they have grown to appreciate that their dad really cares about them and of course he can physically protect them in ways I just can’t (he is 6’1” for a start while I am 5’5”).

Added to just say, as my kids have each started working they have grown to appreciate how very hard their dad works and how he doesn’t complain about it, and what it really means to be working to support 5 people (I am not working outside the home, except a few hours a week on (one) of our family businesses.

This is such a good point. Most teenagers would not be overjoyed when their mother decides she is a man, wants to be treated as such and takes male hormones. Or their father decides he is a woman and wants make up and clothes advice from his daughter.

Ha beowolfa and beautiful you made me lol.DH and his chum did suggest wearing dresses and hanging outside xs house! Love a bit of flippant - I think one of the many problems with trans stuff seems to be, where’s the fun?
bearingfalse ‘DH but he isn’t good with some emotions, talking about them, or recognizing them in others.’ sounds like my DH too! He’s often an idiot. Today was a bit upset and our friend stopped what he was doing and took time to chat and cheer me up, DH just asked where he’d find a box. To be fair he hadn’t realised what a twit he was and laughed at himself. Humpf!

I think your advice is sound ( and your DH and family sound lovely).
I will mention that and as other pps have said, he loves her very much, he works too hard and worries too much - but he has kept a roof over our head under massively difficult circs., all families are bonkers, all have challenges and like an Instagram post, all the crap is behind the camera!
would love DH and DS to have hobbies. DH knackered, partly since illness. Partly work.
mrs overton I agree! Wise words cloglady. (Again!)
I suppose I have to do the coffee and cake thing. I’d much rather make an excuse. I rather think x is keeping dd on a short lead and has to now appear to be my friend.

im so sorry to hear everything your daughter has been through. So massively hard for her, especially with all the confusing Internet crap.

I really don’t think you are overstepping, I think you are sharing very hard won knowledge and I am very grateful that you can share it.

I think what you say sounds totally on the ball - a protective shell and a ‘holiday family’ cos she’s misunderstood her dad - who doesn’t always get stuff. ( and probably me)though how living in totally borrowed clothes and being in the bedroom while x is out and the mum is working from home Astounds me. Doesn’t Sound that much fun. As DH said, DD is giving up a lot x isn’t.

thank you so much everyone, so lovely to hear your kind words.

@Moomoola I don't have any advice (as usual!) but it's really great to see all the posts above from various people offering insight, really wise advice and general handholds.

I hope that things improve for DH too, because working all hours when exhausted from illness isn't fun at all. I know his behaviour maladaptive coping strategies impacts you and the rest of the family, and that must be hard.

I hope you can enjoy the coffee date with DD and X. I hope you and X can find common ground (you both think DD is the bees knees, that's a decent start) and over time develop a good relationship, as you would hope to with a DD's partner. I really do.

You're doing the best you can, and that's enough.

Thank you bez
@Moomoola I don't have any advice (as usual!) but it's really great to see all the posts above from various people offering insight, really wise advice and general handholds.

Agree, you are all wonderful.
arranging a coffee is like negotiating a hostage ! They won't accept a lift . Steeling loins to be nice 🙂🙂

I know you probably want nothing more than to give your DD a good hard shake for bringing all this stress on her family but do try and bear in mind that the teenage brain IS selfish and impulsive and completely lacking in self awareness.
I’m sure there is some sort of evolutionary biological reason for it, although that doesn’t help us much in the modern world - our laws and customs have been created and changed piecemeal and left us in a weird situation where kids are expected to stay in school/Ed til 18/19 but are expected to pay full price on buses at 16 🙃

It’s difficult because OF COURSE you don’t want to be a pushover and OF COURSE you don’t want to encourage further estrangement. But the fact remains that at 16 teens can generally leave home, despite being miles off proper adulthood and not an attractive tenant for a landlord (especially with the two tier minimum wage system!)

Sitting in someone else’s bedroom while their mum works from home in another room
is my idea of hell, but perhaps it doesn’t feel too different to your DD’s experience at home with dad - feeling boxed into one small room in someone else’s property (ie the age old ‘you treat this house like a hotel!’ That is parents come out with), trying not to make too much noise in case you get told off? If X’s mum is less grumpy than your DH it might well feel like an improvement.

FWIW, I was delighted when my eldest came home back from uni (about 2 hours away and I never visited because of littlest cancer followed by covid, as she was on the extremely vulnerable list) and I actually spent some time redoing his room. He was back in town for about 4 weeks when he moved into a 4 person house share with friends he knew from high school. Turns out that no matter how much your mum loves you and accepts you and lets you bring friends home, it’s not enough for a 21 year old lad on his journey to full adulthood.

And that’s ok. Not gonna pretend I don’t find it completely batshit (and a little bit hurtful) that he spends £400 a month to live a mile and a half down the road but we don’t birth them to keep them at home forever.

Yes, your DD’s exit from the family home is on the early side and it’ll (hopefully) probably be a false start, but you did raise her to become her own person and actually, the person she is becoming has lots of positives, albeit ones it’s currently hard to see clearly under the fog of trans and an intense romantic attachment.

Try and keep an open mind re: X - I’ve personally met young detrans women who were completely convinced they were transmen & thus a gay male couple, who later on realised they were young lesbians coming of age in a lesbian-hostile era.

It’s easy to be a zealot when you are young!

Here’s Ellie and Nele’s story:

www.bbc.com/news/stories-51806011

I met them at a detrans panel talk a couple of years back and had a really good chat with them both but especially with Nele.

I asked her what could her mum have done differently that could’ve altered her path and Nele said there was nothing. That her mum had loved her throughout her life and through transition but had remained skeptical and asked questions, and that her mum’s gentle, loving skepticism made it easier to ‘fess up when Nele realised she had been wrong about the trans thing and was ready to reidentify as a woman, and as a lesbian.

Ellie said that her understanding of herself changed via joining a leisure sports team, that she looked male enough that the other women & girls assumed she would play on the male team, but that Ellie herself knew on every level, physical, emotional, rational and subconsciously that she belonged on the women’s team.

The more your DD and X live their lives in the real-world, the more realistic their sense of selves will become.

I’ve said it before (under many a username!) but I was an utter shit to my wonderful, loving, mother from 14-17 and it took me until 24/25 and the birth of my first baby to really ‘get it’ in terms of what she’d done for me and how lucky I was to have her.

Thankfully, she did respond to my utter unreasonableness by pushing me away, but instead kept me on a long, almost unnoticeable elastic band. An elastic band that eventually snapped me back right beside her.
She must’ve been close to giving up hope many times, but she never gave up on me.

Your daughter is lucky to have you, and I’m telling you this now because it might be quite a while before she has the brain maturity and life context to realise it herself 💐

@TheClogLady
Very wise words!

@TheClogLady thats lovely

Thank you for sharing! cloglady you’ve explained it all beautifully. A big bunch of flowers for your amazing mum, she’s brought up a very wise kind person!
and a big bunch for you. Going to a d trans event, you are very proactive. Cancer is such a massive illness - for everyone. To go through it with covid, woh. You’re amazing. All of you are.

thanks for the link.it all seems so complicated, and so much to go through.
the reporting makes it seem all rather rosy and nothing to worry about.

I’ll do the gentle loving skeptiscm thing, thank you.

It is hard, my brother did the exact same as your eldest. It’s just more fun I guess, sadly. This Boring parent would quite like a house share with mates!

but yes, they do leave and I am actually proud of her in a way for forging her own path, as long as she is, and not being coerced/ thinking of drugs.even if I think she’s narrowing her life choices - giving up school etc.

anyway, did EXACTLY a as you advised, cloglady and beza Costa hot chocolate, a smile and a handshake. It was a bit awkward, but we managed to make it fun.
Costa was a great choice, couldn’t get sucked into a long lunch, and anonymous enough. So thank you!
Got a text off DD saying she thought it went well.
PHEW.

Thank you everyone for your calm handholding and support.
I really hope we are getting there.
now to work on DH and DD.
again thank you all . i think the explanations here of how DD and DH may be thinking are very useful. It would have been very convenient for me to blame Dh , - I did for a while- but families are a system and I’m part of the system so…
thank you SO much everyone.