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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

990 replies

Moomoola · 11/01/2023 08:15

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
MumOfYoungTransAdult · 01/02/2023 12:14

she seems to be mates with all the kids with problems so many have left school without exams.

That was a thing with my DC too, although DC did very well academically. I still worry about that risk now. Socially vulnerable youngsters do tend to attract each other. My DC is neurodiverse, d'you think there could be any of that for your DD?

wednesdaynamesep · 01/02/2023 12:30

On the cat thing ...

Our cats are the glue that bind us together. We all adore them completely and I think it's been the best thing ever for my DC. Our cats do not use a litter tray, which makes life a lot easier, but we live in the countryside. The only extra chore is feeding them, and ours get fed once a day. A friend of mine recently got a cat and her DH was vehemently opposed and didn't even like them. Of course he's now besotted. I'm not saying it will be like this for you, but I really don't find them hard work at all.

Moomoola · 02/02/2023 07:05

Thanks re reading all of your handy hints. Meeting dd today. She wants a few bits.
Jury still out on cat ! Maybe a goldfish :)

OP posts:
Highdaysandholidays1 · 02/02/2023 09:52

I would keep it light and breezy, if they ask directly or initiates the conversation around what's happening, respond truthfully but kindly (e.g. how is dad?) Otherwise, I wouldn't try to get answers or in any way go towards the big questions, that takes time and an ongoing relationship. But don't be fake nice, just remember this isn't (hopefully) a one off and there's plenty of time to discuss other issues. One of mine (the one who wants boob job) has an eating disorder and it's hard, but I try to spend lots of time not discussing the ED, she's still the same person and still a teen who wants to chat to Mum. Obviously it's different if she initiates the chat, but you aren't there to 'get answers' or sort things out for once and for all despite what your DH might think. Do you and her.

BezMills · 02/02/2023 09:56

@Highdaysandholidays1 sounds like good advice

ScrollingLeaves · 02/02/2023 09:57

Highdaysandholidays1 · Today 09:52
One of mine (the one who wants boob job) has an eating disorder and it's hard

Probably she basically wants to be a ‘neutral’ little girl again. That’s why it’s good to keep chat to non contentious but happy, special, family interests so they can get some temporary comfort and relief from their mum.

tattygrl · 02/02/2023 11:27

MrsOvertonsWindow · 31/01/2023 08:24

"Working on her" as your DH sees it will not bring her home. It might drive her further away.
Quiet "acceptance" is the way to go. Listen and keep listening, show respect and reassure her that whatever decisions she's made, you love her unconditionally. Keep the door open at this stage. If you push back (which of course you'll feel like doing) it buys into the narrative that she's being sold. It goes against our instincts but if you want her back in your lives, she needs to want to return. And she's 17 - she won't unless she can see it as a non judgemental place.

Not sure what you can do re your DH - he's now bullying you in his frustration and rage and that's not on.

Agree fully with this. Quiet acceptance and keeping the focus off the ideological issues. I think it's gone beyond worrying about whether showing acceptance will "encourage" or "enable". Right now your aim is to have her back at home with family, and I think that's what you should focus on. Focus solely on your personal relationship with her, not in hashing out the why's and the ideological beliefs.

McGonagallshatandglasses · 02/02/2023 12:44

I've just read most of this thread and my heart is hurting.

My eldest is currently living with my parents. At 16. Not for any reason that anyone will ever be able to explain in a way that makes it better for me.

My husband and other children are also hurting.

I agree that you need to take care of you first. Then DS. Then DH.

Kittens may be a good plan. Something new for your family to focus on. For your DH and DS to enjoy together. But it can't be another task for you. Your dh seems to want you to be making a home for an imaginary family. The one they doesn't exist and can't right now. Your daughter may come back one day, but your life can't be put on pause until that possible future. You need to continue as best you can for YOU.

And at the same time you build a new relationship with your daughter. Lots of messages. Invitations. Photos. Upbeat mostly but it's ok to also sometimes be a little bit vulnerable.

Your relationship is for life. As others have said, this is a war, not a battle. Take all the advice and comfort you can. Do what you need to stay in her life.

You are her mother. You are enough. And you will get through this. Like you've got through the other things life has thrown your way.

You don't have to affirm her false beliefs.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 02/02/2023 14:24

Lovely post @McGonagallshatandglasses 💐

I was a wayward teen 30 years ago and I never stopped loving my mum, even while I was pushing her away.

I loved her even when I told her I hated her and I really did tell her that, ‘I hate you and you are ruining my life’.
I didn’t. She wasn’t.

Hindsight eh?

Try and come up with something genuinely complimentary to tell your DD - I know you are all hurting right now but if you break all that’s gone on into little chunks, there are positives in there.

She’s consistently going to school (whereas I did a proper runner from home AND school) and she’s managing to do that despite not having you around to make sure she’s awake/has packed her bag/hasn’t mislaid her bus pass.

And she is working (for the first time?) which is a good thing in terms of being around a variety of people of all ages (and not just her alphabet teens peers).

I know you are likely worried about her working resulting in less time for study and having her own money meaning less likely to come home, but if you break it down into small chunks some of those chunks will be positive!

Working part time is a great way to develop important skills for young adulthood eg responsibility, resilience, team working, self confidence, real world maths & budgeting, negotiation, good time keeping. Earning your own money gives you a sense of payday-pride, it makes you feel less powerless (a tiny almost-adult in a big world can feel like a legendary emperor one minute and a pointless pipsqueak the next, and swing between both multiple times a day). Earning your own money gives you confidence that you can get on in the world, you just have to do some boring bits.

Perhaps think of some anecdotes from your own first job (or her uncles, or grandparents, if there is a better story there). Find commonalities and remind her, subtly, that no one knows her the way you do (eg if she says I really enjoy aspect x of my new job you can say, ‘oh! When you were little you used to play at doing x, so it makes sense you’d good at it for real all these years later’.

Resist the urge to interrogate her, it won’t go down well (teenagers are prone digging in on positions that they don’t even hold anymore, just because they don’t want to give mum and dad the satisfaction of being right all along). Try and keep it light and ask open ended questions where you can and give her lots of reassurance, you could say you aren’t keen on the situation, but you’ll always been keen on her.

The trans movement teaches our children that adults (‘Karens’ ‘Boomers’) are a hostile force, that their parents will reject them for not being the perfect, socially conforming offspring, that the only way they can be their true selves is to kill off the old self (‘deadnaming’) and be reborn in their new gender.
Our job as parents is to quietly demonstrate that they can both strike out on their own (as all adults must eventually) and live a life that suits them, but they don’t need to jettison their entire past to do that.
We’ve found reverting all three kids to their younger pet names (Rabbit, Chicken & Mouse) is a great way to keep them all connected while sidestepping the new name: I avoid pronouns and call them all my kids/babies (semi ironically) rather than sons/daughters. I also call them ‘Eldest’ ‘Middle’ and ‘Little’ as if they are their actual names.

Don’t fret about the name on exam certificates, the exam boards reissue them for free when an older person transitions, so I’m sure she will be able to have it reissued for free if she were to revert. The exam board wouldn’t necessarily know she was going backward rather than forwards, because the request to them would be the same in all practical ways.

Is your daughter interested in learning to drive? If so, I wonder if that could be a pull factor? Obviously it’s a way off yet but perhaps arranging a few lessons that pick up and drop off at your house could be a useful strategy? Or perhaps making a pact that if she saves something towards lessons from her new wage, you will match it (so if she saves enough for 3 lessons you will top it up to 6). It would a) give her an incentive to save some of her wages and thus she
won’t be able to afford as much fun stuff, making living away less fun overall b) you would be rewarding her good/responsible behaviour (saving) in a way that ties cause and effect together in a really obvious way (which is great for subtly reinforcing the desirability of those good behaviours) and c) you would be acknowledging that she is heading towards adulthood and that you, her mum, are practically preparing for her adult stage (learning to drive is probably the closest things secular Britons in the 21st century have to a coming-of-age ritual!)

if driving lessons aren’t appealing to your DD, see if you can think of something similar that you can make a matched savings agreement on?

The key point is that it’s not you just offering her a gift (she’s had gifts without obligations her whole childhood already) nor is it an obvious bribe (she’ll probably be on high alert for bribes as a sign you aren’t accepting her new self and just want a compliant little girl again 😬) but that it’s framed as an acknowledgment of what she will have achieved independently (getting a job and saving some of her wages) and her reward is the ability to take another step towards autonomous adulthood.

It’s not the cash that matters, it’s what it will represent.

(and if she does shit all to save anything, you are off the hook, as it’ll be her lack of action that breaks the deal, not you talking something away!)

I hope you have a lovely time today and you both walk away from your meeting spot feeling positive and loved.

💐

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/02/2023 14:35

Such lovely thoughtful posts McGonagallshatandglasses & NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom xx

ScrollingLeaves · 02/02/2023 22:59

Yes, they were. Everyone can learn from them

Zatroya · 04/02/2023 08:42

@Moomoola hope you're going okay

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 04/02/2023 14:15

Hoping that things went OK for you and DD @Moomoola

And I'm also appreciating the wisdom from @NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom and @McGonagallshatandglasses

Moomoola · 04/02/2023 21:52

Thank you! Sorry not to reply sooner. Of course Dh and I are talking all the time about this. I am getting a bit over tired with it all.I’m screwing up at work and live in a wierd limbo of this is normal then I read Abigail schrier and it’s anything but.
you have all given such sound and wise advice and I’m so sorry you have all had such difficult challenges. You are all amazin that’s for, sure.
as you suggested I kept chat light and about our shared interests. She looks thin, she’s wearing borrowed shoes and clothes. She says being with the mum is a bit wierd. I forgot the passport ( actually did, I was so flustered) and gave a her a letter.
wehad a good chat I thought neutral topics.

Much later that night I got a ‘don’t open my letters text’ it was very curt and hurtful and made me wonder why she hadn’t mentioned it at the time. Dh says it’s because x is going over everything and said to say that. Can’t help thinking he’s right.

OP posts:
NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 04/02/2023 22:12

She’s probably got something coming in the post from the NHS.

Don’t panic though, the current wait lists are about 2 years for a first appointment one of the 3 gender pilot schemes and 5 for the traditional GICS.

You are doing really well, much better than you think you are. Just keep plugging away with the light and neutral topics and wait for the Other Mother (Coraline reference intended) to get sick of her cluttering up the place using up extra electric.

FaceLikeCattle · 04/02/2023 23:33

Ooh @Moomoola, the cracks are beginning to appear in her new living arrangements. I think it's a bit step for her to tell you that living with the Other Mother is weird (love the reference @NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom). It couldn't have been easy to say because it's a bit like saying she was wrong to move out and life isn't all that peachy with the new family, after all. When she's alone and her gf isn't monitoring her, she's able to tell you these things. It shows that for all her pushing you away and unpleasant texts, she does still value your opinion and turns to you when things go wrong.

If she thinks being with the mum is a bit weird, then the family ideology is going to be less appealing. After all, who wants to become more enmeshed in a situation that is starting to feel weird?

I also wouldn't be so sure that she's waiting for an NHS letter. I wonder if the gf said to her that you shouldn't be invading her privacy by opening her letters and you needed to be told. So maybe she wrote "don't open my letters" in the same way the council might write a "keep off the grass" sign. Teenagers really struggle with empathy and she might not realise how curt the text sounded.

CamilleRose · 05/02/2023 00:36

Also who knows whose actually writing the texts? Or at the very least they are likely to be discussed and dictated and someone is looking over her shoulder when she writes them. That’s if they are radically different to how she was communicating previously.

It is a good sign, if in her own way she is comparing her experience at home and with the other family. It may be harder to keep up the cognitive dissonance if her mum is always warm and welcoming, when others are trying to paint you as an ogre. And at times she clearly is comparing you favorably with the other mum.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 05/02/2023 09:54

I agree, it is a good sign.

Here’s a few snippets from a couple of websites re: The Other Mother.

Perhaps one day, years from now, you’ll be able to look back at this time as DD’s Coraline phase.

Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return
Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return
Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return
Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return
NitroNine · 05/02/2023 11:44

Just caught myself up @Moomoola - am glad you got to see your DD, & agree with PPs it’s quite blatant X controls communication between your meetings.

Not paying £400 for a cat is very sensible. Adopting a pair of bonded cats/kittens from your local rescue centre is the way to go - once you’re through any home visit stuff & have a date set to visit to meet potential felines you could invite DD to go with you to help choose. Just casually “we’re going to Cats Protection on wheneverday & I wondered if you’d like to come? I was wondering about insert links to adorable felines from rescue centre website but it all depends on how they feel about us!” & if she’s a no “that’s a shame, could you help me pick out which cat tree to get? And isn’t this DJ turntable scratchpad cute? Would getting them a tank be weird? Is a wee shop too much?”

As for cat care, Cats Protection have pretty comprehensive but accessible advice; & the posters over on the Litter Tray board are always very happy to help people who’re having problems or who’re just worried.

They can be prone to mangling things; & kittens basically have two modes (zoomies & sleep); but cats are good for your health. Perhaps crucially for your household, they’ve been shown to reduce humans’ stress levels & boost well-being levels (the survey of Scottish youth aged 11-15 referenced in that last link perhaps of particular interest to you). Adopting cats rather than kittens is also not only calmer but means you’ve an idea of their personalities & needs (ie you know you’re getting a snuggle monster or an independent spirit - or anycat in-between). Or there are cats who need to be indoor cats because they’re deaf or blind or FeLV+ (but those are probably not first cat cats).

Please look after yourself in all this: it isn’t selfish to prioritise [some of] your needs & set boundaries. Are you able to get individual as well as family therapy? To have that kind of space, as well as here, to offload & explore might help - especially if you feel you may be carrying any residual trauma from the last few years.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••

I found the discussion upthread re: childhood trauma/anorexia/autism interesting. I’ve only got part of an autism diagnosis (Because Reasons - essentially not had complete assessment so they’re not allowed to say “this is a diagnosis”, but as what they said was “if assessment were completed an autism diagnosis would be given” and online tests available score me as “why did you bother taking this you autist?” I don’t think unreasonable to say I have autism?) but I developed AN after sudden death of my mother when I was 10.; & if I’d been indoctrinated into believing in gender ID I’d be after saying I was non-binary. I’d also be desperate for puberty blockers because I found puberty so utterly horrific - physically, mentally & emotionally. The wee bit of me engaged in the magical thinking that if I could just keep things from changing my mummy would come back - & the terror that if they did change & she came back (it perhaps somehow all having been a terrible mistake) she’d not be able to find me &/or she’d not know me 😶

ScrollingLeaves · 06/02/2023 00:00

NitroNine · Today 11:44
I developed AN after sudden death of my mother when I was 10.; & if I’d been indoctrinated into believing in gender ID I’d be after saying I was non-binary. I’d also be desperate for puberty blockers because I found puberty so utterly horrific - physically, mentally & emotionally. The wee bit of me engaged in the magical thinking that if I could just keep things from changing my mummy would come back - & the terror that if they did change & she came back (it perhaps somehow all having been a terrible mistake) she’d not be able to find me &/or she’d not know me 😶
I am so sorry your mother died when you were a little girl, how very sad.
💐💐💐

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 06/02/2023 10:22

Nitro - I cannot even begin to imagine how unstabilising motherloss is in childhood, especially for little girls 💐

I was in my 20s and almost 20 years on I still miss her every single day. It’s like a hole, deep inside. Not in my heart, but in my gut, more like a hunger than a sadness.
I can definitely see how motherloss could kick off an eating disorder.
My daughter (aka ‘Little) feels it too, but as an echo, as she wasn’t born until 10 years later. She has a granny-shaped hole in her worldview.

Perhaps that’s one of the reasons I feel so motivated to support OP, not so much the trans thing (crikey knows there is a lot of it about) but because I treasure the mother-daughter bond* in both directions.

To be bereaved of one’s mother and have a daughter cleaved away by the mother-hating alternate-glitter-family genderwoo clan at the same time seems especially egregious and I can’t help but feel they are connected in some way.

I know that some people, mostly family members, some friends, couldn’t really stand to look at me in the early days. It was almost as if they feared my grief could be contagious, airborn, if they looked at me too long my tears would seep into them.

Similar happened when Little was in cancer treatment - childhood cancer is something off the telly, or for fundraisers in the local rag. It’s not something they want in their homes, in their kids’ schools.

I’m telling personal stories to try and avoid too much speculation and pop pyschology, but perhaps seeing your mum grieve her own mum creates complex feelings about your own (near inevitable) future motherloss?
Easier to push her away now while you have choice and control than to think about having her taken from you by death?

Dunno, something to think about maybe.

*I realise not all women have good relationships with their mothers and in someways motherloss can be a relief, or bittersweet. I’m fortunate to have had my wonderful mum for two and a half decades and that’s what stops me dissolving into a puddle of jealousy at families with living grannies/brides who have a mother-of-the-bride etc!

Delphinium20 · 06/02/2023 16:46

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 06/02/2023 10:22

Nitro - I cannot even begin to imagine how unstabilising motherloss is in childhood, especially for little girls 💐

I was in my 20s and almost 20 years on I still miss her every single day. It’s like a hole, deep inside. Not in my heart, but in my gut, more like a hunger than a sadness.
I can definitely see how motherloss could kick off an eating disorder.
My daughter (aka ‘Little) feels it too, but as an echo, as she wasn’t born until 10 years later. She has a granny-shaped hole in her worldview.

Perhaps that’s one of the reasons I feel so motivated to support OP, not so much the trans thing (crikey knows there is a lot of it about) but because I treasure the mother-daughter bond* in both directions.

To be bereaved of one’s mother and have a daughter cleaved away by the mother-hating alternate-glitter-family genderwoo clan at the same time seems especially egregious and I can’t help but feel they are connected in some way.

I know that some people, mostly family members, some friends, couldn’t really stand to look at me in the early days. It was almost as if they feared my grief could be contagious, airborn, if they looked at me too long my tears would seep into them.

Similar happened when Little was in cancer treatment - childhood cancer is something off the telly, or for fundraisers in the local rag. It’s not something they want in their homes, in their kids’ schools.

I’m telling personal stories to try and avoid too much speculation and pop pyschology, but perhaps seeing your mum grieve her own mum creates complex feelings about your own (near inevitable) future motherloss?
Easier to push her away now while you have choice and control than to think about having her taken from you by death?

Dunno, something to think about maybe.

*I realise not all women have good relationships with their mothers and in someways motherloss can be a relief, or bittersweet. I’m fortunate to have had my wonderful mum for two and a half decades and that’s what stops me dissolving into a puddle of jealousy at families with living grannies/brides who have a mother-of-the-bride etc!

This is a very poignant, and heart-wrenching, post. I agree. I lost my mother when my children were very young and my oldest did struggle for a bit - she blamed me for allowing her grandmother to go to the doctor (she was young enough to believe the doctors killed her). She was very angry w/ me, but because she was so young, it wore off much quicker. W/ teens, it's likely to be a deeper, longer pain.

NitroNine · 07/02/2023 02:04

Thank you @ScrollingLeaves - at the time I didn’t really feel/understand how young I was: partly, I think, because I’d always been very mature/sensible, but also because I immediately experienced huge amounts of pressure to take responsibility for looking after my home & family. It was assumed my father would be hopeless/helpless - & of course that he’d remain so; & much was made of how young (3 years my junior) my sister was. From here, 10 is so very young to be thrown, literally overnight, into a world that makes no sense at all. It is - for me, at least, but for others I know too - a grief that gradually receded from its all-consuming nature, but rather than being “over it” I live alongside it now, as if in a house by the seashore. Sometimes when I walk along that shore, simply living my life, I will find myself swamped by a sudden inrush of sandcastle-smashing grief, or even dragged right out to sea into a crashing storm, half-drowning before I am released onto the shore once more. What I know now is that even if I’m trapped under the waters of a griefstorm, I will not actually drown. I used to long to, as a child & teenager. To simply die, not to kill myself (a sin), & make the unbearable pain of it stop. That grief is the trade-off for living mummy, being so very loved - & knowing that I was. I’m quite sure we’d’ve had dreadful rows when I was a teenager because we’re so alike, but one of the never-hads I mourn is our adult relationship. This year I will turn 40, the age mummy was when she died: the idea of becoming older than she got to be is a very strange one.

@NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom
Motherloss is not something people naturally respond to well, on the whole. I was bullied (I didn’t tell anyone, naturally 🙄) in my last year of primary school, which barely even registered in some ways as I was so desperately miserable (found out much later my teacher repeatedly told other staff she was hugely concerned but didn’t know what to do… so they all opted for “nothing” 🤦‍♀️). By time I finished secondary school I’d realised that my peers were responding to dreadful spectre I represented: I was proof that people’s mummies died; that they died suddenly; & that they died when they weren’t ill - ie, any of their mothers could suddenly be ripped from them at any time. People’s parents responded to that same thing by being overkind - my sister & I were overwhelmed with (unreciprocable, of course) invitations to go to tea with people after school & our fridge filled over & over with mostly-unsuitable food. (Having to keep track of whose dishes were which + ingredients + cooking instructions [once I’d got people to supply latter] was of course not at all stressful. And yes, people wanted to help & they didn’t know what to do. But they also wanted to make themselves feel better & be seen to be doing a good thing; so it does matter I was having to try to play fridge Tetris with stuff my pescatarian brother couldn’t eat & often had so much dairy I’d be ill if I tried to.) Parents saw me & signalled “please do this for my child if ever…”; but the majority of my female peers simply saw me, in a way they could not articulate, as a literal living nightmare. The boys were gentle with me - several of them were grieving mummy’s death as a personal loss, which may have made a difference - but most of the girls treated me as if I had become a monster as something monstrous had happened to me. Cruelty & spite in words & actions - mostly the physical stuff was pinching me, but going unchecked emboldened them to “accidentally” push me down the stairs & “accidentally” spray me in the eye with the deodorant. As is often the case, it was one girl leading it - & keeping her hands clean. The girl she got to spray me in the eye with deodorant seemed genuinely shocked by it having actually hurt me.

A few years ago someone from my church’s mother died the night before I was taking her two youngest girls (of four) & some others out for day. The elder of the two was 9 & had adored her granny; & we spent a bit of the day (at her instigation!) talking about there not being right or wrong ways to grieve (she was quite distressed one of her big sisters hadn’t even cried) & also not to worry about her mummy crying. She was finding it destabilising because at 9 you go to mummy when you’re upset & she makes you feel better; & instead with this she was upset too. She knew about my mummy & asked questions & apparently I managed to make her feel much more secure about all of it.

People definitely do shy away from young people who’re bereaved though. Or - as you say, who have cancer. These days they might be there to use a [tenuous] connection to them for social media likes; but actual support? Ahahahahaha no.

Girls’ responses to the deaths of their maternal grandmothers often include preemptive maternal rejection & defensive isolation; or, at the other end of the spectrum, massive separation anxiety similar to that seen in girls whose mothers are/have been seriously ill. Engaging in magical thinking of “if I’m constantly with her nothing bad can happen” - perhaps more common in younger girls, before the natural phase of separation?

•••••••••••••••••••••••••
Sorry that’s all a bit long & babbly; & I didn’t want/mean to merail your thread @Moomoola 😶

CamilleRose · 07/02/2023 02:52

Really feel for the women who have lost mothers on this thread. This ideology is tearing at the unconscious fabric between daughters and their mothers. Mothers have been demonized and daughters are encouraged to reject them as the creator of their past “dead name” life that they want to escape. When of course, most of this pain is the internal struggle to become an adult and understand themselves that we all have to navigate. This process has been poisoned and warped and all mistakes can now be associated with the mother or evil terf.

notanicepersonapparently · 07/02/2023 08:21

I have a little experience of what you are going through, which I won’t go into here, but just wanted you to know my comments are thought through.
have you considered what the Other Mum knows about you as parents? It seems possible(even likely) that she has been told that your DD cannot return home. I’m assuming that she was steamrolled into taking in your DD with a teenage sob story of awful parents who have chucked her out/ she cannot go home/ had nowhere to live/ implied and unspecified hits of abusive behaviour (they were cross with me!). Since the reality is very different you might want to make the Other Mum aware of the facts.
If I had taken in someone else’s child I would be prepared to talk to them about it. How would you feel about going over there and telling her that you want to check she is OK and that you think the best place for her is at home with you.
Would your husband be willing to do this? He seems to want to be proactive.
It might shake things up a little if you feel the situation has stagnated. Perhaps other mum is getting tired of this arrangement and wants out?
You may think this is a terrible idea (and it may be) but since it hasn’t been suggested before I thought I would.
So sorry you are in this situation.