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Original poster

Trans Swimming sessions

1000 replies

DaveDave · 01/01/2023 09:49

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

OP posts:
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8
Flounder2022 · 02/01/2023 18:22

Sprogonthetyne · 02/01/2023 18:16

Apologies if the thread has moved on since this was asked, I only just checked back and haven't read passed this yet.

To me parents been explicitly banned from supervising is far more concerning then supervision been optional.

If a would be predator were to turn up to any random public swim, there may or may not even be any unsupervised children present (as although 8+ are not included in the adult:child ratio, it would be unusual for them to be there alone), and they would have no way of knowing if any child they saw was alone, or had a parent watching from the side/viewing area or had a parent elsewhere in the pool. This uncertainly would deter the would be predator from approaching any child, as they do not no which are supervised and which aren't.

In contrast, this is been advertised as an event where children will be unsupervised, so any potential predator who sees that advert will know they can approach children at this event with much less 'risk' of a parent turning up and challenging them. I'm in no way saying trans people are any more likely to be predators, but that predators who have seen that advert may claim to be trans in order to access those unsupervised children.

There's also lots of every day 'thing that can go wrong', as children of "all ages" are not usually allowed to swim without adult supervision. What will they do if someone turns up with a 6yo in armbands? They've literally put no age on it so an (irresponsible) parent could easily read that and think they can just hand over their kid. What if a big group of kids are messing about without anyone to calm them down and ensure they behave safely? Yes lifeguards are there, but they aren't babysitters, and if they're spending there time dealing with behaviour their not watching the pool. It just seems poorly thought out.

And to counter some of the comparisons made, it is nothing like leaving children at a swimming lessons, where they're in a separate area, in a class with other children and under the care of a qualified and vetted swim instructor.

It's also nothing like a private party, where parent are usually allowed to stay if they wish and random adults can't just turn up.

The comparison with a dad not being able to supervise girls in women's only swimming sessions is also floored as these sessions are usually adults only (women are adult females), and even if children where allowed, it's far easier to find a female chaperone then a trans chaperone, as women are a bigger demographic.

Show quote history

They're may not be any children at this event either!

Where does it say it is unsupervised if children are to be present?

Nobody 'turns up'- you have to book in

Datun · 02/01/2023 18:23

WarriorN · 02/01/2023 18:19

Where has anyone said they shouldn't?? But the majority on this thread have assumed they have not considered safeguarding. There is nothing to suggest that is the case. As I have already said, their safeguarding policy could be added to their website, the fact it is not does not mean it does not exist.

My Lea and school are rather obsessed with safeguarding. we are in the habit of raking over things a lot so as to not miss a trick. There's no sane reason why PARENTS of children in a pool are not allowed to watch but UNFAMILIAR ADULTS can be in the pool.

Yes, I'd like to see that covered by a safeguarding protocol. I like a bit of creative writing. That should be a blinder.

Put it this way, advocates for this session have wracked their brains all the live long day, and have come up with gawping and transphobic parents.

WarriorN · 02/01/2023 18:24

Yes Sprogonthetyne we are all thinking the same. Apart from a couple who don't get it and think this being organised by a charity means it's all probably fiiiiiine.

Noname99 · 02/01/2023 18:24

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ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:24

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IcakethereforeIam · 02/01/2023 18:26

@Flounder2022 how do you know so much about this? Is the floor plan on the website? And if it is why isn't the safeguarding policy? Anyway, you've said you only know what's on the site, you're likely making an educated guess.

The fact that it's been ongoing for a year, I don't know if that makes it more or less concerning. If most kids are abused by people known to them, they've potentially had a year to build a relationship. Which could be great...or not. Especially, in the absence of parents.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:26

To be clear, transvestism isn't always a disorder, it has to meet specific criteria. But it certainly can be. It's very well recognised, evidenced and researched.

www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/transvestic-fetishism

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/conditions/transvestic-disorder

thriveworks.com/blog/transvestic-disorder-symptoms-treatments/

Datun · 02/01/2023 18:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Haha!! No, anyone who is indulging in a cross-dressing fetish, is indulging in a cross dressing fetish.

you probably don't know this, but it's included under the Stonewall umbrella of transgender.

Flounder2022 · 02/01/2023 18:27

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/01/2023 18:13

It's unbelievable that anyone questions why women and parents are suspicious of adult focused queer theory groups who decide to target other people's children and arrange mixed age activities for them without rigorous safeguarding procedures.
If you want to set yourself up as an organisation that works with children then your safeguarding procedures need to be bomb proof. Rocking up on here and claiming "safeguarding expertise" while the majority of your comments demonstrate that your expertise is lacking and using transphobia to challenge safeguarding concerns doesn't work anymore.
As Mermaids have evidenced, too many in the charity sector have a woeful understanding of safeguarding, with adults completely unsuited for working with children being given positions of influence.
Safeguarding children is rigorous, challenging and involves asking difficult questions and being prepared to think the unthinkable. This activity is lacking in transparent safeguarding measures for children and they need to do better

It's unbelievable that anyone questions why women and parents are suspicious of adult focused queer theory groups who decide to target other people's children and arrange mixed age activities for them without rigorous safeguarding procedures.

careful now, your bigotry is showing.

Noname99 · 02/01/2023 18:27

StrawberryFieldsForEveryone · 02/01/2023 18:01

Well, as much fun as this has been, I think I’m done for today - I’m not into any more pointless circling around the drain.

The people who think it’s appropriate and justifiable to bring convicted sex offenders in to bolster their prejudice will not be swayed, of course.

But I know there will be readers who see this thread and know that not everyone on mn is blindly following the “all things trans related are suspect because trans” narrative.

And maybe just one or two of the regular posters or lurkers on this board will take a look at their thinking and notice the inconsistency and prejudice has escalated with the constant reinforcement here, and maybe they’ll be a little less hasty to judge trans people and organisations to a higher harder standard than anyone else, or to associate trans people so readily with paedophiles and sex offenders.

Maybe.

This level of bigotry is the minority Strawberry - just hold on to that fact.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:28

Ah, we've got to the point where the only argument left is to call us all 'bigots'.

Datun · 02/01/2023 18:28

It's unbelievable that anyone questions why women and parents are suspicious of adult focused queer theory groups who decide to target other people's children and arrange mixed age activities for them without rigorous safeguarding procedures.

"careful now, your bigotry is showing."

Just leaving this here. I'd like to repeat this a thousand times on this thread.

Flounder2022 · 02/01/2023 18:29

IcakethereforeIam · 02/01/2023 18:26

@Flounder2022 how do you know so much about this? Is the floor plan on the website? And if it is why isn't the safeguarding policy? Anyway, you've said you only know what's on the site, you're likely making an educated guess.

The fact that it's been ongoing for a year, I don't know if that makes it more or less concerning. If most kids are abused by people known to them, they've potentially had a year to build a relationship. Which could be great...or not. Especially, in the absence of parents.

Jesus, your'e really flying close here.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:30

Datun · 02/01/2023 18:28

It's unbelievable that anyone questions why women and parents are suspicious of adult focused queer theory groups who decide to target other people's children and arrange mixed age activities for them without rigorous safeguarding procedures.

"careful now, your bigotry is showing."

Just leaving this here. I'd like to repeat this a thousand times on this thread.

Yes. Safeguarding is 'bigotry'.

Datun · 02/01/2023 18:30

We've been told that women only places are discriminatory, that lesbians are sexism racists and now, safeguarding is ... bigoted.

Flounder2022 · 02/01/2023 18:31

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:28

Ah, we've got to the point where the only argument left is to call us all 'bigots'.

I think the point we've got to is that it will always cone back around to that, no matter how reasoned ypu think your arguments are. Some people are just better at presenting in in a more palatable way.

Noname99 · 02/01/2023 18:32

Datun · 02/01/2023 18:23

Yes, I'd like to see that covered by a safeguarding protocol. I like a bit of creative writing. That should be a blinder.

Put it this way, advocates for this session have wracked their brains all the live long day, and have come up with gawping and transphobic parents.

Show quote history

No we haven’t you just will not engage with the explanation give multiple times that just as women deserve their own space because they want one so do trans people.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/01/2023 18:33

WarriorN · 02/01/2023 18:19

Where has anyone said they shouldn't?? But the majority on this thread have assumed they have not considered safeguarding. There is nothing to suggest that is the case. As I have already said, their safeguarding policy could be added to their website, the fact it is not does not mean it does not exist.

My Lea and school are rather obsessed with safeguarding. we are in the habit of raking over things a lot so as to not miss a trick. There's no sane reason why PARENTS of children in a pool are not allowed to watch but UNFAMILIAR ADULTS can be in the pool.

Swimming has a grim history as being one of the sports where predators were able to access children with ease. Like most sports, it's now done a lot to improve the situation. They had to because of evidence like this from the law firm Leigh Day :

www.leighday.co.uk/latest-updates/blog/2022-blogs/abuse-in-swimming-another-reason-why-iicsa-should-have-thoroughly-investigated-abuse-in-sport/

Swimming is an activity where children can literally be "out of their depth" and where they rely on adults for safety. There's a reason why the repellant Jessica Yaniv got involved in a mixed age swimming group (mentioned upthread).

Back in the 90s, as schools tightened up their safeguarding procedures after repeated abuse scandals, predators instead headed for sport and set up numerous groups in leisure centres etc, to target children. Local authorities then had to set up safeguarding processes to weed out these the predators. And on it goes. It's not transphobic or any other kind of phobic to challenge adults who set up activities for children and to insist that their safeguarding procedures are rigorous and transparent. Frankly, adults who challenge this are the ones we should be suspicious of.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:33

You will always end up name calling, because your arguments just don't stack up, and that is the only response you have left. It's defensiveness, I know.

DialSquare · 02/01/2023 18:33

"Some people are just better at presenting in in a more palatable way."

Do you know any of them?

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:34

Noname99 · 02/01/2023 18:32

No we haven’t you just will not engage with the explanation give multiple times that just as women deserve their own space because they want one so do trans people.

Show quote history

I think the women here arguing for safeguarding are all perfectly delighted for trans people to have their own spaces! Go for it! Have a ball!

But those spaces/events are not exempt from normal safeguarding, that is applied to all groups.

Flounder2022 · 02/01/2023 18:35

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:33

You will always end up name calling, because your arguments just don't stack up, and that is the only response you have left. It's defensiveness, I know.

Who called anyone names?

Datun · 02/01/2023 18:35

Flounder2022 · 02/01/2023 18:29

Jesus, your'e really flying close here.

Show quote history

Close to what?

Christ on a bike. The wilful reframing of safeguarding as discrimination, is awful.

You do know that children are abused, right? You do know that abusers spend decades on the process.

You do know, that safeguarding protocols provide a shield for that? That you have to imagine the worst case scenario, and then provide protections against it.

it's unequivocally, undeniably, NOT a problem to do that.

No-one is exempt. And you reacting as though they are, is a safeguarding fail.

ArabellaScott · 02/01/2023 18:35

Calling someone a 'bigot' is an ad hom attack. AKA 'name calling'.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/01/2023 18:35

Noname99 · 02/01/2023 18:32

No we haven’t you just will not engage with the explanation give multiple times that just as women deserve their own space because they want one so do trans people.

Show quote history

Trans people are entitled to their own spaces. If they wish to engage with children then they need to adopt the same standard of safeguarding procedures that every other organisation must - without whingeing and bleating about it being transphobic.

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