Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

"Gawping parents"

Well, as much fun as this has been, I think I’m done for today - I’m not into any more pointless circling around the drain.

The people who think it’s appropriate and justifiable to bring convicted sex offenders in to bolster their prejudice will not be swayed, of course.

But I know there will be readers who see this thread and know that not everyone on mn is blindly following the “all things trans related are suspect because trans” narrative.

And maybe just one or two of the regular posters or lurkers on this board will take a look at their thinking and notice the inconsistency and prejudice has escalated with the constant reinforcement here, and maybe they’ll be a little less hasty to judge trans people and organisations to a higher harder standard than anyone else, or to associate trans people so readily with paedophiles and sex offenders.

Maybe.

The people who think it’s appropriate and justifiable to bring convicted sex offenders in to bolster their prejudice will not be swayed, of course.

i'll take that to mean that you do, unequivocally, understand what a 'free pass' means.

And I hope, going forward, that you also understand, that safeguarding is for everybody.

ArabellaScott

What age did you let your child go play at a friends house? Or leave them at a kids party? Statistically, they are far more likely to be abused by known adult?

Or is it the pool but?
My children went “unsupervised” to mixed age pool parties with adults from about 6? We lived abroad in a hot country where everyone had a pool so kids would all go to someone’s house and end yo in the pool with adults some of whom I knew (statistically a risk) some of whom I did not.

You also seem to be (deliberately?) ignoring the bulk of one of my posts and concentrating on the ‘gawping’ part.

Is it not the right of women and girls to have single sex spaces to enjoy? Is it not the right of them to undertake single sex activities? Why?? The vast majority of men are not a threat and in a public space even less so why should women be able to demand these? Because they want them. Because they feel
safer/less exposed/less judged/religious belief etc. Why can’t trans people ask for the same? You would not allow a father to ‘oversee’ a female only swim session for ‘safeguarding’ reasons …… why can’t this vulnerable group of people who likely have a host of body issues be allowed to swim with their own community. Parents aren’t excluded. Non trans/non-binary people are (unless they are needed to facilitate the trans person or event) Not hard to understand

I hope they get this sorted, that it goes ahead, is successful and is repeated. Perhaps have two sessions, one for adults, who probably don't want to be arsed with kids anyway, and one for children and their parents, perhaps an opportunity to make friends and find support

this

It has been ongoing for at least a year

missed this earlier….although i still think it would be good to have two separate ones with parents involved if required

What on earth? This is blatantly awful - there is no evidence whatsoever that abusers are ‘attracted’ to the TW+ community??! What sort of nonsense bigotry is this?

The vast majority of abusers in this country are white heterosexual males. Ffs. And likely a family member or close friend to those they are abusing

Where is it advertised that they are unsupervised??

There's something which I feel is a bit of an 'elephant in the room' here. Being trans is all about 'sex'. Now this is not at all to suggest in any way that all transpeople are obsessed with the act of sex or are more of a threat to children than any other random person who might be in a swimming pool would be or anything like that, but to be trans you have to be very aware of your sex and how you feel about your sexed body. You simply cannot be trans if you have not thought a great deal about how your body looks and feels and appears to others. A huge amount of discourse surrounding this issue is about bodies - can women have a penis? Should a transman remove their breasts? How does your body change when you take hormones? We can argue about the safeguarding aspect of this without knowing all of the details until the cows come home, but when it comes down to it, I think the idea that this is a mixed age event, parents excluded for people who are hyper aware of their sexed body is where the underlying unease with children attending this event is rooted.

StrawberryFieldsForEveryone · Today 11:38

This is where the thread reaches it’s foregone conclusion any time someone points out the holes in the GC arguments against something trans people are doing.

Spurious nonsense about kids being safer anywhere but where trans people are

That's dishonest rubbish from you. Everyone is pointing out the safeguarding risk of allowing children in, unsupervised by parents, into a closed venue with no phone reception. Stop twisting peoples' words.

It's unbelievable that anyone questions why women and parents are suspicious of adult focused queer theory groups who decide to target other people's children and arrange mixed age activities for them without rigorous safeguarding procedures.
If you want to set yourself up as an organisation that works with children then your safeguarding procedures need to be bomb proof. Rocking up on here and claiming "safeguarding expertise" while the majority of your comments demonstrate that your expertise is lacking and using transphobia to challenge safeguarding concerns doesn't work anymore.
As Mermaids have evidenced, too many in the charity sector have a woeful understanding of safeguarding, with adults completely unsuited for working with children being given positions of influence.
Safeguarding children is rigorous, challenging and involves asking difficult questions and being prepared to think the unthinkable. This activity is lacking in transparent safeguarding measures for children and they need to do better

Where has anyone said they shouldn't?? But the majority on this thread have assumed they have not considered safeguarding. There is nothing to suggest that is the case. As I have already said, their safeguarding policy could be added to their website, the fact it is not does not mean it does not exist.

Right, so we haven't been able to identify another group or organisation that does this.

Just like there is no other arena in which it would be acceptable for a children's entertainer to have sexually explicit material on their public social media (Flo Job, Aida H Dee drag queen who read to kids). And when people object to this they are labelled 'hateful' and 'right wing'.

Just like there is no other arena in which a (at best) major paedophile apologist (Jacob Brewslow) is appointed trustee of a children's charity, and another person in a prominent role at the charity (Darren Mew) has pornographic images of themselves freely available to see on Twitter. And when people object to this they are labelled as 'abusive' and 'bigots'.

Just like there is no other arena where a prominent person who has invited minors to privately message them on social media and clearly doesn't have the first clue about safeguarding (Munroe Bergdorf), is employed as an ambassador for the NSPCC. And when people object they are labelled as 'far right extremists'.

Just like there is no other arena where children are invited to pose with naked adult men (I believe that child's drag name is Lactacia), or are encouraged to dance in front of adults for money in a night club in the middle of the night (Desmond is Amazing) and when concerns are raised people (Munroe Bergdorf again!) say that that is, and I quote 'completely normal'. And if you object you are labelled as 'a disgusting TERF who should die in a grease fire'.

Etc etc etc.

We have already had 'terrifying right wing' and 'extremist' on this thread I think.

I'm beginning to see a pattern.....

Rocking up on here and claiming "safeguarding expertise" while the majority of your comments demonstrate that your expertise is lacking and using transphobia to challenge safeguarding concerns doesn't work anymore.

I don't think anyone took that person's post seriously.

Excuse the many typos in my last post!

Please show me your evidence for this utter blatant bigotry. Show me one piece of evidence that says that abusers are “attracted” to the TQ+ community. Absolute bollocks and you claim to know your safeguarding??!

The vast vast majority of abusers in this country are white, heterosexual males and they abuse family members or close friends to whom they have a relationship with. Next comes those who are sex traffickers and groom vulnerable children over time usually those in the care system not one who take them swimming and sit in the changing room next door.
what possible evidence do you have for this??

Their parents are in the next room. The outside door is locked, not the one from the changing room, where their parent are, that leads directly to the pool!

Apologies if the thread has moved on since this was asked, I only just checked back and haven't read passed this yet.

To me parents been explicitly banned from supervising is far more concerning then supervision been optional.

If a would be predator were to turn up to any random public swim, there may or may not even be any unsupervised children present (as although 8+ are not included in the adult:child ratio, it would be unusual for them to be there alone), and they would have no way of knowing if any child they saw was alone, or had a parent watching from the side/viewing area or had a parent elsewhere in the pool. This uncertainly would deter the would be predator from approaching any child, as they do not no which are supervised and which aren't.

In contrast, this is been advertised as an event where children will be unsupervised, so any potential predator who sees that advert will know they can approach children at this event with much less 'risk' of a parent turning up and challenging them. I'm in no way saying trans people are any more likely to be predators, but that predators who have seen that advert may claim to be trans in order to access those unsupervised children.

There's also lots of every day 'thing that can go wrong', as children of "all ages" are not usually allowed to swim without adult supervision. What will they do if someone turns up with a 6yo in armbands? They've literally put no age on it so an (irresponsible) parent could easily read that and think they can just hand over their kid. What if a big group of kids are messing about without anyone to calm them down and ensure they behave safely? Yes lifeguards are there, but they aren't babysitters, and if they're spending there time dealing with behaviour their not watching the pool. It just seems poorly thought out.

And to counter some of the comparisons made, it is nothing like leaving children at a swimming lessons, where they're in a separate area, in a class with other children and under the care of a qualified and vetted swim instructor.

It's also nothing like a private party, where parent are usually allowed to stay if they wish and random adults can't just turn up.

The comparison with a dad not being able to supervise girls in women's only swimming sessions is also floored as these sessions are usually adults only (women are adult females), and even if children where allowed, it's far easier to find a female chaperone then a trans chaperone, as women are a bigger demographic.

Seriously? People have been arguing about the situation even on a hypothetical basis.

if the charity subsequently tick all the safeguarding boxes, then that's brilliant.

Flounder2022 · Today 18:16

Their parents are in the next room. The outside door is locked, not the one from the changing room, where their parent are, that leads directly to the pool!

They are explicitly forbidden, unless they are trans, from being by the poolside.

Where has anyone said they shouldn't?? But the majority on this thread have assumed they have not considered safeguarding. There is nothing to suggest that is the case. As I have already said, their safeguarding policy could be added to their website, the fact it is not does not mean it does not exist.

My Lea and school are rather obsessed with safeguarding. we are in the habit of raking over things a lot so as to not miss a trick. There's no sane reason why PARENTS of children in a pool are not allowed to watch but UNFAMILIAR ADULTS can be in the pool.