Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

Yes, that's why I don't get why parents aren't allowed to watch? If you are the parent of a trans child who is so invested that they are taking them yo this kind of event, you are not going to be 'gawping' at trans adults are you?

It's difficult to judge without knowing the venue and the setup, but as I said, most pools have somewhere where you can watch people in the pool.

What is it about being in an entirely different place to where the children are that you don't get? They have no eyes on their child.

And also they might pretend to be trans and bring down the trans purity of the event. That’s the only reason people might pretend to be trans to be at this private event. The only reason, there isn’t a single other reason apparently.

Apart from the pool hasn't had to stipulate 'genitals covered'.

fact check 1: public pools in the UK have clothing policies too, and they typically specify genitals must be covered and contained

fact check 2: some public pools do not have viewing areas

fact check 3: unaccompanied children aged 8 or over are permitted in public mixed pool sessions all over the UK. That’s not something one could describe as a loophole - more a cavernous gaping maw if you really do believe it’s not safe for children to swim with lifeguard supervision only

I'm getting the feeling that what is needed now on this thread is a good dose of grey rock. It looks to me like one of those highly informative threads that could end up being taken down for not being ITS. Let's not provide ammo.

Any parent could be present at those other sessions. What don't you get about that?

This is a private session, organised by a specific group of adults and the condition of children attending is that parents aren't allowed to be there.

There is no condition placed on any other adult to be there, other than saying some words out loud.

Hiding in plain sight.

<head tilt>
What do mean exactly?

Every weekend, millions of children are dropped off at football, hockey, rugby clubs without a murmur

Because staff are required to have DBS checks and have safeguarding policies. So parents feel reassured.

Are you still sticking with the only reason people might pretend to be trans is to gawp at trans people, Noname99? No other reasons you can think of that males in particular might pretend?

At least we’ve finally had someone acknowledge people might pretend to be trans for nefarious reasons.

Good advice Jelly.

I do hope that somebody contacts the venue in question, and finds out some more details, though. I'd like to see an update.

Hopefully one where we see the safeguarding issues have been addressed.

I mean, all it requires is "parents welcome".

Klaxon - thread now entering final stages of GC flailing.

We are now at the “ignore the terrible disrupters trying to silence our vital safeguarding work” step of chasing off people who point out the nonsense.

It's an open invitation to predators who want to groom kids isn't it.
Specific session, specific invitation to particularly vulnerable kids who are likely to turn up on their own as parents and friends who are not trans are not permitted, and to any adult who is prepared to lie. Likely to be more chat between participants than a general swim session where everyone turns up in small groups at different times. Trans issues to the fore which gives any predator an in to talk about bodies and sexuality.

Not at all the same as swimming lessons where even when parents are not able to watch, only kids are swimming and all instructors are DBS checked, they do the exercises they're told to then are handed back to their parents. There is no expectation to socialise, and non DBS checked adults trying to interact with the swimming kids in any way would be immediately red flagged by the teachers to the lifeguards or security staff.

Least ones come out and said it out loud, that because it's a trans session , likely to all be perves hiding who are wanting unfettered access instead of hiding behind insinuation of "what could possibly be the reason?" type comments I suppose

I can't think of another event for kids where it has to be stated that genitals must be covered?

I was trying to think of an equivalent adjacent ish activity.

So donkey rides at the beach signs must look like this, see attached, I presume 🙄

Specific session, specific invitation to particularly vulnerable kids who are likely to turn up on their own as parents and friends who are not trans are not
Parents are allowed though, just not poolside! Which is usually the case but nobody seems bothered about that, just now when it's a trans swim session

There is no condition placed on any other adult to be there, other than saying some words out loud

Male 1: “I’m a parent. I’m here to support my amazing AMAB daughter who wants to be just like Lia Thomas when she grows up!”

”You can’t come in on case you gawk at people.”

Male 2: “I’m trans/non-binary/intersex.”

“In you come, but remember, cover those genitals !😉”

At least you are acknowledging that the perverts are cis and not trans.

maybe take it up with them rather than folk who just want to provide a space for their community to go.

Yes, so predictable

My comment was specific about what possible reason someone might have to pretend to be trans. For the first time ever I’ve seen someone admit that
a) someone might pretend to be trans and
b) that it would be for nefarious purposes.

This is progress. Now all it takes is a little leap to see how predatory males might pretend to be trans to access children free from their parents at a private swimming session. And consider what this organisation is going to do to
a) stop that happening and
b) protect the children present if their parents aren’t going to be there to do it.

If anyone who supports this event can just demonstrate a) or b) either direct from the charity itself or with a good proposition for the charity from their own thinking, that would be great.

So how are they going to know who's trans/non binary etc? As a woman, I could just show up here, in my swimming costume and have a free swim.

The vast majority of predators are male. I have not said they are “cs” or trans. There is no difference between the proportion of “cs” males who are predators and the proportion of trans males who are predators. How do we tell the difference? How do those at the door admitting males to this event?

maybe take it up with them rather than folk who just want to provide a space for their community to go.

I regularly do. But in this case a charity has decided to invite children to an event, so the onus is on them to demonstrate how they’re going to protect children from predatory males, regardless of how they identify.

If they want to provide a space for their community to go, good on them, go for it.

If they want to provide a space for children to go, then whoa there, let’s see some protections first.

It’s not a big ask. And they should be happy to do it.

So how are they going to do it?

Paedophiles and perverts come in all genders and both sexes we have safeguarding to limit all the perverts their access.

It's a bit odd that they allow parents in the changing rooms. Surely if they're worried about parents 'gawping', there'll be even more opportunity to do that while the trans people are changing than there would just watching them swimming. And isn't it unusual to have non-swimmers in the changing rooms? (Other than carers or parents of young children.)

It does make you wonder what they think will actually be going on in and around the pool.

Why don't you ask them? Jesus, its not that difficult. But if you do then you might get answers you don't want. You're implying they are hiding the info but its more likely they are not aware aware the great folks of MN are on their case!

I dunno...threads like these tend correspond with an uptick in signatures to petitions like this one:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668425-sex-matters-petition

Has it really never occurred to you that pervs might pretend to be trans in order to attend this event, where children are mixing with adults and their parents are not allowed to attend?

Are you really that naive?