Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

More like: Mumsnet... Great idea, just needs some tweaks to bring it up to normal basic level of Safeguarding, especially since Trans charities themselves point out these children are particularly vulnerable.

Exactly - consent forms that go back to most organisations get a cursory check at most, then a box ticked on the list, and the form is stashed in a folder. No one is cross checking signatures for teenage forgeries.

Honestly the organisers should just make this an R18 or R16+ permission until 18 event.
Then do a separate teens’ event say 11-14 in one session and then 14-17 in another. Or if the main event is R16 then 12-15 would be a reasonable age grouping for a second event. You absolutely could ban parents from a session restricted to teens like that. Then do the permission slips. Ask for school ID cards/public transport cards as proof of age. Accept that if you’re a charity organizing an event for teens that you have a duty of care and make it fucking clear how it all works. I know this is an event where the location is only available on request. Fair enough but that does mean the charity need to make sure that info is available to parents. The location makes a massive difference to safety. Is there safe public transport there and back at the time the sessions are taking place? What happens if your teen behaves badly and is asked to leave the pool? Do they wait in reception? Are they chucked out to wait in the cold wet car park with no phone reception? Will teens need to be dropped off in private cars? In that case parents probably want to know if there’s somewhere nice to hang out while the session happens - a local café, library etc.
And once again, louder this time; you cannot write ´open to all ages’ on the advert when parents are excluded. That’s completely idiotic and totally bizarre. These details are what give parents reading the ad zero confidence in the charity’s safeguarding policy. I bet the parental consent form is basically a legal waiver and that they haven’t thought through scenarios where kids could get in trouble attending this event alone. I’m not even talking about the issue of opportunistic paedophiles. There are all sorts of stupid little things that could go wrong and will go wrong. - Kid behaves poorly and no one’s sure if it’s ok to kick them out of the event, kid gets anxious/bored and wants to leave early but can’t call their parent and reception is unmanned and front door is locked, no one comes to pick up kid at the end because there’s been a communication mix-up, kid is 9 but short and a poor swimmer so life guard bans them from the pool without their parent - who isn’t available because they dropped off.
For an adults event you expect very little in terms of safeguarding. - For an event which welcomes children either you insist they remain the responsibility of their parents who must onsite and in sight of their kids up til X age (maybe 13, say) and after that they can come alone but are still the responsibility of their (absent) parents OR you organize proper chaperones/monitors who are in loco parentis.
This business of an event Open to All Ages but no parents welcome is just extremely poor event management. If this charity had any experience organizing events for children they would never have let that advert be published in its current form.

It's not safe for children because parents are banned from attending with their children and the venue has no mobile phone reception, is kept secret and will be locked during the event.

They could have made this an over-18 event and nobody would have any issues.

You cant just tell all the numerous people who work in a swimming facility to leave. What about the office workers, receptionists, cleaners??

Could be a small private pool or a school pool or something. Places you can book the entire building aren't big leisure centre pools.

Can you think of many other events where children will be locked into a secret venue with a load of random adults and there is no phone reception?

The pools where I live only allow children in when accompanied by an adult. So no, an 8 year old would not be allowed unaccompanied.

They say it's a picnic pool. With lifeguards.

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too,

Public!

Locked entry door is common at private hire facilities, so that no unauthorised people can wander in to the building. It’s for safeguarding and security purposes. I thought you were in favour of safeguarding and security measures?

As for venue secrecy, if you really can’t see why that is necessary for a trans session then you’re either much harder of thinking that you claim, or being deliberately obtuse.

If the venue were named on this thread, just for example, their inbox would be filling up fast with the objections posters are coming up with in the determination to find something dangerous and wrong and threatening to children to pin on this.

@DaveDave
@LizzieSiddal @RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella

lizzie and red said it all.

Ah apologies datun, I'd forgotten that part. Smaller public pool then maybe? As you say, it doesn't seem likely they could clear out a whole leisure centre. But then it must also be outside normal public swim times or they wouldn't be able to book the whole facility at all, so maybe not many people there to clear out.
Or maybe it only identifies as a public pool.

Strawberry fields of course we can see why the door needs to be locked.
as an R18 event it sounds fantastic. Wonderful idea, I hope it goes great and becomes a regular thing.
Children have different safeguarding needs. This event just isn’t suitable for ´all ages’ in its current form.

I'd be totally fine with this (as long as there was appropriate supervision for under 18's) as long as women could have their own separate sex category sessions.

Although by having 'trans-only' sessions, the whole 'TWAW' thing is shot out of the water. If actual women aren't allowed to attend, then transwomen can't be actual women surely.

As for venue secrecy, if you really can’t see why that is necessary for a trans session then you’re either much harder of thinking that you claim, or being deliberately obtuse.

Exactly. I was pretty certain you did indeed grasp the, frankly numerous, issues.

Youre right. One does indeed not need to be 'hard of thinking' to be concerned about an activity where grown adults have arranged to mix with little kids and want to keep it secret.

Again, our local pool is open for full hire at certain times (just like the local soft play is).

I agree, if this was an adults only session, no one here would be batting an eyelid. The concern is no visible lower age plus banning parents from being poolside plus location secrecy.

Excellent post Martialisthebestpup.
When adults want to work with children then secrecy is a major red flag. That's where so many problems start as self absorbed adults desperate to include young children in their ideology, think only of their own wants and not about children's safety or needs.

If the venue were named on this thread, just for example, their inbox would be filling up fast with the objections posters are coming up with in the determination to find something dangerous and wrong and threatening to children to pin on this.

Unbelievable!

That's what safeguarding IS.

You 'come up' with all the 'dangers and threats' and risk assess.

That's the whole bloody point.

If their inbox was filling up with potential risk, their safeguarding policy would be able to deal with it.

What do your think risk assessments are actually for?

Jesus, talk about revealing. You're actually objecting to people identifying a risk!

Jesus. Posters actually complaining that if the venue was more open and transparent, people might be able to point out the safeguarding fails.

It's easy to see why trans people who aren't comfortable with their bodies etc might want their own dedicated swimming session. I know it's hardly the same thing but I've heard of amputee-only swimming sessions in some big cities. It should be 18+ only, though. The reminder for swimmers to cover their genitals appears to give a tacit admission of the potential for a session like this to become sexualised.

And once again, louder this time; you cannot write ´open to all ages’ on the advert when parents are excluded.

Yes, this is effectively saying 'anyone concerned with care for their children is excluded'.

Either these people are very, very stupid or ....

Allowing an 8 yo to go to an open pool session, where the pool is filled with all sorts of people, lifeguards, staff, etc is VERY VERY different from allowing an 8 yo to go to a private event in a locked venue where nobody can call/phone and parents are explicitly excluded.

For reasons so fucking obvious that I am slightly stunned I am spelling it out, here.

And FWIW, no, I wouldn't let an 8yo go swimming by themselves, more because of the risks of inhaling water than anything else. It depends slightly on the swimming ability of said child, but even a strong swimmer can do stupid fucking stuff aged 8. Is there not even a mention of swimming abiliy on these events? So an 8 yo non-swimmer could theoretically go and happily jump in the deep end with no care giver in sight?

Predatory paedophiles are one concern, yes - especially when an event seems like it has been expressly set up to make things as easy as possible for such a person to access children.

But all the other more everyday risks are also apparently ignored.