Can I be forced to use pronouns?

[nationallampoons]

Hi all.

I work in hospitality and my company have recently taken on some new recruits.

One is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns but is considering she/her pronouns. He was born male. He looks male. He had the same uniform as you would expect, neon hair, piercings, multiple badges on his uniform stating his pronouns, he's vegan, free Palestine, f Boris etc.. (I'm not against freeing Palestine or vegans) but you can imagine the type. Everyone's a "facist" etc.. it's draining at times.

Here is my problem, I don't want to use they/them pronouns. It feels unnatural when talking and I struggle with it anyway. I just don't want to do it, I don't care if that makes me rude. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of being moaned at for misgendering. He just doesn't shut up about it.

Now he's saying he believes he may be a woman and is asking questions about "women hood" and all that bs, I've told him I'm not comfortable talking to him about it and I was called a boomer, a Karen and a gammon?? He is considering changing his pronouns in the new year.

Here is my question. Legally, can I be forced to use his preferred pronouns? Not arsed about losing my job, but I don't want to get into any criminal trouble

I just want to go to work, earn my living and go home. I don't have the time or energy or willingness to go along with this bullshit

@PrincipalCharlotte I'm not arsed about anything. I'm deflated, nothing seems to bring me any joy at the moment. Don't know what's wrong with me. I just feel downtrodden by most aspects of my life and this is just another add the the pile.
That's what I mean by not being arsed.

The right to use womens toilets as that always comes up for a start. But in all honesty there’s too many to get into - earlier posts that have tried to “educate” me have been fairly vocal about it all if you want to read back through the thread. I think you know exactly the things I’m referring to because it’s the same things everyone trots out on Mumsnet again and again in these debates.

Well, you've misunderstood. No-one is saying that whether you are trans or not has any bearing on what toilets you can use. It's also unclear which specific law you are referring to.
So again, what "trans rights" are people wrongly saying conflict with women's rights?

Do you even know what you mean when you say "trans"? Would I know how to find out if I am trans? Do you mean "someone who strongly wishes to have the opposite-sex body"?

I think using sex based pronouns is probably at least as ingrained as some of those weights and measures.

I can also see a lot of well-meaning people following what they see as the most inclusive path and just calling everybody 'they' - a kind of linguistic equivalent of serving up vegan-only food at every communal meal, so that nobody will be given anything that they find objectionable.

The problem with that, though, is that - just like there are plenty of omnivores, vegetarians and pescatarians who don't like to think that their own preferences are being ignored in order to satisfy the most exacting people with different preferences - the vast, vast majority of people do not want to be referred to as 'they'.

Using 'they' for everybody is far from inclusive - it is actually divisive, when almost everybody wants to be referred to as 'he' or 'she' in the standard way, as according to his/her sex.

@Flounder2022 just as many or more people used he/him/his to refer to this colleague. Some people might find it ok to use they/them/their when writing messages online. It's a lot easier when you can pause and read back, and edit if you want to before posting. Not at all the same as the normal flow of conversation.

This chap can ask for special pronoun usage, other people should be free to ignore that and use the standard sex based ones without fear of being sanctioned in the workplace.

We will.

The beliefs of your DDs friends with "Special Identities" does not trump my Christian beliefs; do not defraud and do not bear false witness being part of that. And like you say, understanding goes both way. I'm not going to prevent them from address themselves how they like, but they can't force me to change my beliefs either.

I think the problem lies in the fact that the words "he" and "she" have literally related to male and female for everyone's entire life, and now we are told actually they relate to an invisible feeling that is impossible to define but don't get it wrong! So decimalisation would be a good analogy if every price was calculated using a different formula that may change, which people refuse to tell you, in the same way that they refuse to clarify what "woman" now means.

I doubt the majority of those I quoted took the time to reread and be considerate of the colleagues preferences if the rest of their messages were anything to go by.

Many of the people who post on here have experience of being different and being judged for it. Why does your empathy not extend to those who feel offended by having their speech compelled? I would have to change my behaviour by using the wrong sex pronouns and I would be signalling a belief that I do not have (that anyone has changed sex) and which I consider nonsensical and from which I believe real harm results. I would never want anyone to mistake me for someone who bought into it. You must be aware of how strongly some people feel about this, so why does the harm to us not matter to you? On the other hand, I'm not insisting that people may not request use of, or refer to the concept of, preferred pronouns, or that they change their belief that people can change sex, or that sex is a spectrum or it is possible to be neither one sex nor the other.

It seems to me that all you are saying is Be Kind, but using more words. To which my response is, you first.

But still, at least as many or more people used he/him/his, and I think at least a couple of your examples of "they" use might well have been written somewhat with a tongue in cheek, don't you think? And my point about normal conversation, about a specific person who is known to be male, remains.

I also think people likely made sure they used he/him instead of they! And yes, it's of no surprise a thread such as this, on this forum, is going to be mostly people refusing to use someone preferred pronouns.

Yes, your point remains, in normal conversation it may be more difficult. People still use my married name even though I no longer do, and have to remind themselves. But most people have the common decency to try to get it right.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they wouldn't use this man's name? It's not at all the same as forgetting someone's new surname.

Who are you calling babe? I haven’t said I’m ok with that!! Educate yourself!

My point is people can change the words/names/pronouns they use if they decide they want to try. Arguing that shifting to they/them is difficult is a bit of a strawman..people here are saying, for the most part, they dont want to use peoples preferred pronouns.

I would have to change my behaviour by using the wrong sex pronouns and I would be signalling a belief that I do not have (that anyone has changed sex)

Surely pronouns relate to gender, just as much as to biological sex?

If someone comes along who has clearly made an effort to present themselves as a certain gender, it's only common courtesy to try to use the appropriate pronoun for that gender, rather than scrutinising their physique to work out what sex they are underneath - which is a red herring, anyway.

It starts with “respect my pronouns beeeee kiiiiind” and ends up with men in women’s refuges, rape support groups, prisons, taking places on women’s sports teams and taking up spaces on programmes designed to increase women in under represented areas such as STEM and politics

it’s never ever just fucking pronouns, it’s only ever about men getting what they want

The sinister thing about all this batshittery is how quickly such a small proportion of people think it is OK to bully a large proportion of people into colluding in a lie, such as calling someone 'she' when they are patently a man. More importantly, how the hell have they managed to do it? Probably by relying on the instinctive "be kind" attitude of most people, who don't want to offend. However they have done it (thanks Stonewall, Mermaids et al) whole organisations have fallen for this con trick, especially HR departments.

Genuine sufferers of gender dysphoria, or what used to be called trans sexuals, who underwent horrible treatments in their attempts to make mind and body match are a minute proportion of the population and have been subsumed by this gender ideology, which owes little to trans sexualism and everything to living a fantasy life.

Its adherents can't be ordinary like 99 per cent of us. They have to be extra special people with extra special inner souls leading an extra special life. They are essentially narcissists. More fool us for pandering to it.

OP, do whatever you feel you have to. Oh, and wherever you see people posting statements like "educate yourself", be aware they have fallen for the fantasy, hook, line and sinker.

As for posters feeling guilty because they forget to play the game with their children's friends, try and remember you are the adult in the room.

And outside of the world of filters it’s almost always possible to tell

see for example the filtered and unfiltered grace lavery

I'm saying two things. One, people can ask for special pronouns but no one should be expected to comply on pain of sanctions. Reason being that it represents an ideology that it is reasonable not to believe in, and it is not reasonable to compel other peoples speech or claim injury if people don't comply with using your special pronouns.

Two, if people agree to use special pronouns, it can be difficult to do and people should not be punished or be afraid of unintentionally using the usual pronouns based on someone's sex.

Certainly 20, or even 10 years ago I saw no issue with being polite and calling a man "she".

But that was on the assumption that it was just being polite, and we all agreed that obviously he wasn't really a woman.

The moment I realised "trans women are women" was now a thing was basically the moment I realised I had to stop. A world in which that wasn't slapped down immediately as offensive bollocks was a world in trouble.

(I saw that the first such man I had significant dealings with has since accepted some sort of "woman in X" award. He lost a lot of my respect - I had assumed he wasn't the sort of person who wouldn't dream of doing anything like that, what with women being severely underrepresented in X).

How we feel about ourselves has no bearing on how others perceive us so how far can we expect other people to alter their language to reflect our own self-perception?I have listened to someone, I'll call her Jo, I listened to Jo telling me about her 'sibling'. Jo was very careful to use the pronouns they and their and obviously the gender neutral term, sibling. But while I was listening to Jo I was very aware that I wasn't hearing Jo's perspective of this relationship. I wasn't hearing how Jo defined this relationship, I was hearing how this person wanted Jo to describe it. And this person wasn't even there. This person would be totally unaware that this conversation had even taken place.I work with victims and survivors of domestic abuse. That conversation with Jo reminded me of a woman I worked with once whose husband was so controlling that she didn't have any thoughts or opinions of her own. Whenever I would ask her what she wanted for her future or from her relationship, she would tell me what he wanted. And Jo reminded me of her so much.
My question is, how free are we to define and describe our own reality? How free are we to use language in the way which is most comfortable and natural for us in defining and describing that reality? And what happens to reality if we have no shared language to define and describe it?

No, @Squiblet. They do not. Gender in the sense you are using it, reified, is relatively new. Pronouns match the sex of the person. Always have. I do not care how long anyone's hair is or whether they wear makeup or carry a little handbag. On occasion, I care what sex they are, and if I do need to know, I don't have to overly scrutinise their physique. You hate hearing this, but it's quite easy in real life to tell males from females.
Being referred to as she or he when you are actually of the opposite sex is not a prize for best stereotypical approximation of the appearance or behaviour of someone of the opposite sex, nor is it a courtesy. It's bad grammar and more importantly legitimises beliefs which harm women and children disproportionately and in horrible ways.

Exactly

Beautifully put.

Indeed. Even two years' ago, I was saying I would honour people's pronoun requests. I think now I'd choose to exclusively use the asker's name, now I've found out that women in prison are punished for not deferring to the pronoun requests of male rapists placed in the women's estate.

Every time we choose to defer to unexpected pronoun requests out of a wish to be kind, it solidifies the cultural expectation that all people must comply, and it's those who are least able to play these linguistic games who will suffer most from that. That's not kind.