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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can I be forced to use pronouns?

307 replies

nationallampoons · 31/12/2022 14:38

Hi all.

I work in hospitality and my company have recently taken on some new recruits.

One is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns but is considering she/her pronouns. He was born male. He looks male. He had the same uniform as you would expect, neon hair, piercings, multiple badges on his uniform stating his pronouns, he's vegan, free Palestine, f Boris etc.. (I'm not against freeing Palestine or vegans) but you can imagine the type. Everyone's a "facist" etc.. it's draining at times.

Here is my problem, I don't want to use they/them pronouns. It feels unnatural when talking and I struggle with it anyway. I just don't want to do it, I don't care if that makes me rude. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of being moaned at for misgendering. He just doesn't shut up about it.

Now he's saying he believes he may be a woman and is asking questions about "women hood" and all that bs, I've told him I'm not comfortable talking to him about it and I was called a boomer, a Karen and a gammon?? He is considering changing his pronouns in the new year.

Here is my question. Legally, can I be forced to use his preferred pronouns? Not arsed about losing my job, but I don't want to get into any criminal trouble

I just want to go to work, earn my living and go home. I don't have the time or energy or willingness to go along with this bullshit

OP posts:
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5
Winter41 · 31/12/2022 22:44

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/12/2022 22:38

Expand on that one, go on.

What is it about female work colleagues, with or without children, that means they cannot have mental health issues and struggles of their own, and must needs be considered less vulnerable than a male who identifies as non-binary?

Ok. I said 'more at risk'. Not that they were the only group of people with mental health issues. There are plenty of statistics to back up this fact.

ClitoralViolence · 31/12/2022 22:45

This reply has been deleted

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NecessaryScene · 31/12/2022 22:47

I think it is important to acknowledge though that our actions have consequences and it is probably more important to try to protect the mental health of a group of people who are more at risk of severe harm than outraged mumsnetters.

Considered going down the thread of how much harm you're prepared to ignore to other groups, but I have to pack up, and can't continue. Maybe someone else can. (Is Sarah an "outraged mumsnetter"? Is this chap at "more risk of severe harm"?)

So instead, consider this:

What if I genuinely believe trans individuals' mental health is being harmed by people around them lying to their faces under coercion? I'm not sure how mentally stable I'd be if I knew that was going on around me.

I'm not trying to harm him, I'm trying to help him. I'm not doing what he wants, but I think it's what he needs. To hear and understand the reaction to what he's doing and is part of.

And I'm also doing it precisely because actions have consequences, and those consequences are wider than individuals like this.

achillesshield · 31/12/2022 22:47

You’re wrong there. In real life, we all know who’s a man and who’s a woman. We may pretend otherwise but we really know.

achillesshield · 31/12/2022 22:49

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 22:26

I don’t think it does. Not everyone agrees with you. Infact Mumsnet is one of the only places where it’s okay to spout such things. But that’s okay, you carry on, safe in the small corner of Mumsnet where people agree with you to keep validating your opinions.

replying to this

Winter41 · 31/12/2022 22:50

NecessaryScene · 31/12/2022 22:09

'I don't want to call you that, I am going to call you Steve' that would be considered rude and a bit odd.

And on that note - yes, indeed. It would just be considered rude and a bit odd. But that's all. Calling people made-up names is the sort of thing that would be considered an eccentricity. (Although I've never felt I had any power to dictate what people call me anyway - people often abbreviate in ways I never would myself).

And calling a real woman "he" would just be rude and a bit odd.

So what makes calling a man-who-says-he's-a-woman "he" into something much worse? Something that someone even finds themselves asking a question about losing a job, or criminal trouble? I think it's mainly because it isn't just saying something a "bit odd" - it's specifically stating the truth. We're in an environment where compliance to not call out lies is what is being tested.

I think some of these arguments are getting a bit convoluted. Essentially my view is this.. I don't really 'get' the transgender issue, but I don't think that matters. It's just basic good manners and kindnesses to refer to someone the way they ask me to and does not have any great impact on my life. I have far bigger concerns than how someone else identifies and so to me it makes sense to crack on with my life and let them do the same. It's a complete non issue for most people and frankly if people are making it an issue they have too much time on their hands.

Winter41 · 31/12/2022 22:51

NecessaryScene · 31/12/2022 22:47

I think it is important to acknowledge though that our actions have consequences and it is probably more important to try to protect the mental health of a group of people who are more at risk of severe harm than outraged mumsnetters.

Considered going down the thread of how much harm you're prepared to ignore to other groups, but I have to pack up, and can't continue. Maybe someone else can. (Is Sarah an "outraged mumsnetter"? Is this chap at "more risk of severe harm"?)

So instead, consider this:

What if I genuinely believe trans individuals' mental health is being harmed by people around them lying to their faces under coercion? I'm not sure how mentally stable I'd be if I knew that was going on around me.

I'm not trying to harm him, I'm trying to help him. I'm not doing what he wants, but I think it's what he needs. To hear and understand the reaction to what he's doing and is part of.

And I'm also doing it precisely because actions have consequences, and those consequences are wider than individuals like this.

I don't think you get to decide what is having an effect on someone else's mental health.

CAJIE · 31/12/2022 22:52

Well you have to be arsed a bit.spk to your union if he makes another ageist sexist comment.These kind of people think ageism isnt real and need to be challenged.There also seems to be open season on older white women.We are all Karens.Apparently.Unfortunately these people were told they could be anything they wanted by mummy and daddy and also by JkRowling.Not that im accepting the crap shes put up with.I ignore anyone telling me what pronouns to use

CAJIE · 31/12/2022 22:55

When i say older btw i mean over 30 as these little scrotes are bullies.i did oncevthink of moving to scotland but no more after their stupid law change.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/12/2022 23:00

Women have inner lives, including your own mother.

Individualised pronouns are a cognitive load. Even committed trans activists forget to use the specified breaks from grammatical convention when they're drunk.

Meanwhile, women are not your mum, and not even your mother had a life before you were born. Some women have autism, or traumatic brain injuries, that mean they cannot meurolinguistically reprogram their use of language. They might have invisible disabilities that mean they struggle to concentrate. Some women are experiencing the "sandwich" years where you have to simultaneously look after children, and take care of elderly parents and go to work. (Sometimes women can't manage all of that, and that contributes to the pensions gap that means women have lower pension than men!)

Some women are survivors of rape. (Up to 1 in 5.) Some women are in abusive home environments. Some women are suffering from depression, including the female-specific post-natal depression. Almost all women have experienced sexual harassment in public places.

And yet, it is magically assumed that random women automatically have the spare headspace to meet the emotional desires of random male work colleagues.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/12/2022 23:02

*and even your mother had a life

Superfluous "not" inserted itself in there

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/12/2022 23:12

But it’s polite to listen to someone and call them what they ask to be called. That was the point I was making. Deliberately disregarding someone’s preference is just rude.

And compelling people to lie about what they perceive is controlling.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 31/12/2022 23:22

Winter41 · 31/12/2022 22:50

I think some of these arguments are getting a bit convoluted. Essentially my view is this.. I don't really 'get' the transgender issue, but I don't think that matters. It's just basic good manners and kindnesses to refer to someone the way they ask me to and does not have any great impact on my life. I have far bigger concerns than how someone else identifies and so to me it makes sense to crack on with my life and let them do the same. It's a complete non issue for most people and frankly if people are making it an issue they have too much time on their hands.

Have you ever thought that you don't get it because it makes no sense?

If it's a kindness to use requested pronouns, how far would that kindness go?

Neo-pronouns?
e/em/eirs
hie/hym/hiz
ne/nem/nears
tey/tem/ters
xe/xem/xers
ze/hir/hirs
bug/bugself

How about cunt/cuntself ?
How about if I'm a primary school teacher and cunt/cuntself are my pronouns? Would you still use it while in school, or do you have limits on how kind you'll be?

Oh, I know some will say it'll never happen, but why wouldn't it?

I don't think some people realise the door that they're opening.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 31/12/2022 23:32

Just use their name every single time.
call out their abuse every timeTBH
I'd go out of my way to use their name to avoid pronouns.
I'm surprised they're allowed to wear badges as part of their uniform
Because I can’t see them making much of a go at it, they sound both boring and aggressive, as well as the usual helping of self obsession.

All used in this thread despite everyone supposedly being sure the colleague referenced in the OP is a male.

Well, yes. Do you not see that this is not natural usage, artificially manipulated by the fact that a person is rejecting his naturally correct grammatical pronouns? For 99.9% of known people, we also know if they are obviously male or female and we thus use 'he' or 'she' with no drama or confusion on anybody's part. It is because this colleague has introduced confusion - in fact, potential confusion at this stage, as the colleague hasn't yet fully decided the colleaguesself - that people just feel so browbeaten; knowing very well that the #bekind crew will berate them if they dare to call the colleague 'he'.

Helleofabore · 31/12/2022 23:36

Alyxoxo · 31/12/2022 18:31

Your term is outdated please educate yourself there. Also more people regret boob jobs than transitioning. Put the daily Mail down babe.

How very peculiar! This very week we had a male poster who used that term for themselves. That poster also told us that they felt they could speak for all trans people…

It is almost like someone is not being honest.

Do you also speak for the trans community Alyxoxo? Which one of you should we listen to?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/12/2022 23:37

SantaCarlaCalifornia

The female musician Halsey has requested she/her and they/them, and demands that publications interviewing her alternate between using she/her and they/them in the copy.

Catiette · 31/12/2022 23:38

This is really thought-provoking, with so many interesting points. I’m undecided on the best approach to take - which, as a teacher, is far from easy (to all those asking when one ever uses third person pronouns to refer to someone in their presence anyway, teachers have to - a lot, and with an uncomfortably attentive audience!)

I think one point that may not have yet arisen (sorry if it has), though, is that all courtesies are, by definition, a social construct and contract in themselves - and, typically (if not universally) the product of an almost intangible evolution towards a continually shifting consensus on what is / isn’t polite in different contexts. In a sense, then, using preferred pronouns isn’t unambiguously progressive, and rejecting them isn’t definitively rude, even if it feels like that ;and it dies, to me. That it does is, rather, a reflection of a growing consensus and contract. And that’s where this gets interesting. Because there clearly isn’t an established consensus yet, and contract implies a reciprocity that seems lacking in this particular context, as others highlight above.

I think this is, in part, because this particular linguistic and social shift has been relatively abrupt - and perhaps you could say somewhat artificial? - in the sense of it being quite consciously engineered by a minority movement. That in itself isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It could be positive. But it may also come with issues. And that’s where the debate should begin and why debating it seems legitimate, as long as this is carried out respectfully and sensitively. It is, after all, ironically, respect and sensitivity that both sides are arguing for!

One logical starting point is, for me, to recognise that some of the more concrete societal changes that are parallel to, and exist in a clear, if complex, symbiosis with these linguistic shifts - for example, the accelerating movement towards gender neutral toilets as inclusive, and a collective sense that positive affirmation is advisable - are not unambiguously, definitively positive. Women ARE losing access to the single-sex facilities the Equalities Act acknowledges do benefit them. Cass DOES express concern about current straightforwardly affirmative approaches to the treatment of gender-questioning teens.

And that’s why I personally do feel a deep-seated ambivalence and discomfort using opposite-sex pronouns for students in my classes. I do it, but am giving something up myself in giving them this. This is my current compromise.

For those who wonder, I think that what I give up includes

  1. My absolute certainty that I’m fulfilling my duty of care to the best of my ability.

I worry that, in affirming the social transition of confused children, I may be somehow complicit in harming them by compounding diagnostic overshadowing or catalysing familial strife. A standard expectation that a medical professional condones this approach by teachers, and that a gender-questioning child changing their pronouns receives additional support, would go a long way to mitigating this for me.

In addition, I’m uncomfortably conscious that for me to, for example, call a boy “she”, is to explicitly condone, in a public forum full of malleable, naive and vulnerable adolescents for whom I’m a role model, the belief that gender supersedes sex in some or all contexts. I don’t see how this can’t contribute, however slightly, to solidifying some or all of the more concrete parallel societal shifts that remain potentially problematic? Young lesbians are being taught (literally; I queried a lesson plan about this as homophobic) that they should feel attraction to the male body; girls are learning they should accept a grown man in the changing rooms (ref. that distressing Primark video). It’s in large part through adults’ use of language and behavioural modelling that such conventions are taught and normalised: say please and thank you, it’s ok not to talk to strangers, don’t go into the bar area of the pub. Each seemingly insignificant use of a different-sex pronoun must add up up to a cumulative normalisation of values that, yes, very probably do have the potential to help some individuals - but also come with the risk of harm to groups; that are a kindness to some, but not to others. Again, this suggests a need for nuance. It’s hard, though, because the immediate responsibility to the individual, especially a child, will always feel paramount, with social change more abstract and reassuringly intangible.

  1. My own integrity. I’ve been asked to withhold a child’s pronouns from their parents, and this troubles me still. Someone I deeply respect equated this to not disclosing to a carer that a student has come out as gay, but I don’t think the two are wholly comparable for a number of reasons, including the ongoing uncertainty re: treating such children, the sense that (ironically, given the end of 1) above) adherence to each individual’s requested pronouns itself sometimes seems more ideologically driven than a considered and professional response to each child’s unique needs), and, lastly, the proactive nature of the, for want of a better word, deception - actively changing my pronoun use for the parents from what 500 other children and adults are used to me using in public spaces feels, quite honestly, rather sickeningly duplicitous in the moment.

  2. My sense of self.

It’s genuinely how I feel each time I use an opposite-sex pronoun now. It wouldn’t have been before reading widely on the current threats and quantifiable damage to women’s rights, but now I feel, as I do it, my guilty complicity in all the concrete shifts that these ostensibly courteous linguistic parallels facilitate: the rape victim forced to call her attacker “she” as per guidelines as were; the little old lady in the hospital ward instructed by nurses to perceive the male opposite as female as per some current NHS policy documents.

And last bit not least, there CAN a personal cost in addition to all of the above: the knowledge that, in using the opposite-sex pronoun, I’m certainly perceived as signalling my adherence to an ideology that denies me my own, sex-based sense of self, instead aligning the idea of man/woman - who or what I am - with socially constructed values I may not agree with. This truly is no small thing to ask of me.

So. My current preferred solution would be to use names and “they”. I hope this would go some way to respecting the deep-seating need for the trans student - for whatever reason this may exist - to be liberated from the shackles of their sex and the binary as they see it, without driving them towards a potentially problematic affirmation as research drags on. It would also liberate me - from feeling compelled to redefine myself in the eyes of others. This too, I feel, in the light of the current implications for women, is a similarly important kindness.

Sorry for the length. Another opportunity to work out my thinking in something I find, as a decidedly left-wing liberal, deeply troubling and complex. Who knows, I may feel differently tomorrow (whole new year, after all!)

Flounder2022 · 31/12/2022 23:42

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 31/12/2022 23:32

Just use their name every single time.
call out their abuse every timeTBH
I'd go out of my way to use their name to avoid pronouns.
I'm surprised they're allowed to wear badges as part of their uniform
Because I can’t see them making much of a go at it, they sound both boring and aggressive, as well as the usual helping of self obsession.

All used in this thread despite everyone supposedly being sure the colleague referenced in the OP is a male.

Well, yes. Do you not see that this is not natural usage, artificially manipulated by the fact that a person is rejecting his naturally correct grammatical pronouns? For 99.9% of known people, we also know if they are obviously male or female and we thus use 'he' or 'she' with no drama or confusion on anybody's part. It is because this colleague has introduced confusion - in fact, potential confusion at this stage, as the colleague hasn't yet fully decided the colleaguesself - that people just feel so browbeaten; knowing very well that the #bekind crew will berate them if they dare to call the colleague 'he'.

You think people on this thread feel browbeaten?? Are you for real?

Waitwhat23 · 31/12/2022 23:47

No debate
Deplatforming
The silencing effect
Institutional capture
Doxxing
Rape and death threats
'Not valid'
'Stonewall law'

So...yes.

atomsgirl · 31/12/2022 23:48

I recall when I thought we should just be nice, and do what the men wanted when it came to pronouns. But now I think it's wrong.

You can't change your biological sex. You are either born with female genitals or male genitals. So it's impossible.

But because of this dangerous idea that you can change sex, we already have men in female prisons. Im absolutely staggered at this one. And so cross.

We've lost some women's sport as well. That's now being taken over by men, because they are stronger and faster than women so they obviously take the top prize(s)

In Scotland, we're about to have any old man who identifies as a women for 3 months will be able to go into women's spaces such as changing rooms, transfer prisons, DVCs, etc. And this is obviously very dangerous too as they 'can be anyone'.

We're also loosing our stats as they will be distorted as to rape, abuse, fair wages etc. How will we know if the 'women with the wombs' are ok?

And it all comes down to this stupid idea that people can change sex. We should have been truthful from the beginning instead of being kind, and used the correct pronoun. Then we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

If transmen need a safe space, they can have their own! If they have body-dysmorphia they need to see a therapist, (although I have found the most vocal (and the majority of) trans don't tend to have body dysmorphia anyway).

As long as you don't get sacked, I would recommend being truthful (and nice where applicable).

Afterfire · 01/01/2023 00:08

achillesshield · 31/12/2022 22:47

You’re wrong there. In real life, we all know who’s a man and who’s a woman. We may pretend otherwise but we really know.

I haven’t said I disagree with this. I still think using they / them if someone asks you to is the polite, tolerant and modern thing to do.

Couldn’t care less whether (as mentioned upthread) Eddie Izzard wants to be called a woman. We all know he was born a man. And it doesn’t make me any less of a women or damage my own gender by saying yes ok, I’ll call you a woman.

There are, however, many trans people, like my dds friends, that you would not have a clue they were ever the opposite gender / sex than how they introduce themselves. And that’s okay too.

I will never feel threatened by someone choosing their own pronouns. My own gender isn’t that fragile.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 00:11

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 31/12/2022 23:22

Have you ever thought that you don't get it because it makes no sense?

If it's a kindness to use requested pronouns, how far would that kindness go?

Neo-pronouns?
e/em/eirs
hie/hym/hiz
ne/nem/nears
tey/tem/ters
xe/xem/xers
ze/hir/hirs
bug/bugself

How about cunt/cuntself ?
How about if I'm a primary school teacher and cunt/cuntself are my pronouns? Would you still use it while in school, or do you have limits on how kind you'll be?

Oh, I know some will say it'll never happen, but why wouldn't it?

I don't think some people realise the door that they're opening.

Indeed SantaCarla. I was coming to say this.

Where does it stop? Will we have to remember 20 different neo-pronouns if we work in a large organisation?

The potential burden is huge.

atomsgirl · 01/01/2023 00:22

@Catiette I found your post quite interesting to see what your perspectives are as a female teacher. And you've obviously given this quite some thought.

You have my respects trying to find the right way forward in all of this. It must be hard.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 01/01/2023 00:23

Where does it stop? Will we have to remember 20 different neo-pronouns if we work in a large organisation?

Well, they think it'll never happen, it's so easy to use they/them and it's lovely and kind and makes them feel good about themselves.
No thought to people who can't remember the ever-changing pronouns, people with learning disabilities, well they can just do better.
How lovely and kind.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 00:27

And it doesn’t make me any less of a women or damage my own gender by saying yes ok, I’ll call you a woman.

And yet, it can.

A good, clear example of that is a transitioned male athlete who is advising on policy for sport has stated that because people refer to them as a woman, they are seen as female too. And therefore it is prejudicial to try to exclude this person from female sport category.

This rhetoric is not new. I have seen other extreme activists use it too as a foundation for demands that are harmful to women and children.

So, while you can continue to tell yourself and others that there is no harm to females in the action of calling a male a woman, I and others on this thread, and across the world will continue to disagree with you.

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