Scottish Parliament final debate on Gender Recognition Reform today

[ArabellaScott]

At some point after 2pm, in the Big Room (the Chamber).

www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/whats-on-and-watch-live/whats-on#wm

Will be interesting to see how the Amendments go down, if they are all struck down as the ScotGov wishes - www.holyrood.com/news/view,gender-recognition-reform-crunch-vote-after-shona-robison-warns-msps-over-amendments

'the Scottish Conservatives have warned that the debate could lead to a "travesty of democracy" because a 15 minute time limit for each proposal will "shut down" discussion.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64032916

Any rumours yet about mind changing?

I feel like I am watching a car going over the cliffs. Everyone else is screaming 'stop!' whilst the driver is accelerating.

I know it’s going to go through, but I’m still hoping against hope for last minute sanity

my only consolation is that going so obviously against what the majority of Scottish people want must surely signal the beginning of the end for the SNP. It’s very obvious to me that they’re well dodgy on a number of levels

Not that I know of, Rambling. I find it VERY odd that the Scotgov are so intransigent on Amendments. Why on earth not allow Amendments - as is perfectly usual and tbh at this stage the whole poitn of parliamentary scrutiny?

Why force the bill through in its rawest, most extreme and most batshit form?

I think they're setting it up to be taken down by WM.

WM?

Sorry its probably really easy to figure out but menopause

Never mind west minister

Yes, sorry, Westminster!

If that's correct, then I hope Sunak/Badenoch spell out why VERY VERY CLEARLY so all can see. Including in Parliament, multiple media rounds, op eds, the lot.

The emperor has no clothes. Say it. Let's see what the opposition have to say in response if they do it with conviction.

Why force the bill through in its rawest, most extreme and most batshit form?

Two possibilities. One they really believe in this and therefore they want the law to be as extreme and batshit as possible to match their genuinely-held extreme and batshit views.

Two, they think that by making it really extreme, someone else (eg Westminster, as you suggest) will intervene, so they will have the relief of their crazy law not being passed while simultaneously being able to blame someone else.

It's really hard to tell. The first possibility is frightening, the second one is highly risky. Both are mad in their own way. As Bernard says this could be the beginning of the end for the SNP.

It is all on Labour MSPs if they ally with the SNP rebels and the Tories they can potentially pass amendments. Politically they will be insane if they don't. The act is unpopular and there will be fallout as it is inevitably exploited by criminals.

If Labour amend it they can escape some of the blame and push it onto the SNP.

With election in 2024 this could be a great vote winner as they can look more rational. However this requires them to back amendments providing more safeguarding.

This act is the biggest own goal the SNP has carried out. The question is does Labour want to exploit it or are they so caught up in gender ideology themselves they are willing to share the blame with the SNP over women being attacked and let the Tories take all the credit for being pro women.

Because this issue is not going away any time soon.

Maggie Chapman, unless she's a stunning actor, appears to be in your first category. Doesn't go far enough?

twitter.com/MaggieChapman/status/1604890889083621376?s=20&t=P5moxYzZLbwjHl8pZ4xxmw

Depressingly I think this is what I'm now hoping for & if it goes this way I bloody hope UK Gov do a proper PR job on it.

I also hope UK Labour are watching this absolute shit show.

Two possibilities. One they really believe in this and therefore they want the law to be as extreme and batshit as possible to match their genuinely-held extreme and batshit views.

Two, they think that by making it really extreme, someone else (eg Westminster, as you suggest) will intervene, so they will have the relief of their crazy law not being passed while simultaneously being able to blame someone else.

Maybe they think it's a win win either way.

The gender extremists in the Greens are terrifying.

Seriously Maggie, leave kids alone.

It's a given that the Scottish Greens are batshit.

What is going on in the SNP is more difficult to figure out.

Is this part of trying to lose the next indyref, because actual independence would destroy the SNP gravy train? But they've just conceded there isn’t going to be another, so why do they need to lose it?

Indeed.

Bloody terrifying stuff.

What is going on in the SNP is more difficult to figure out.

It’s an opportunity to pass laws that will
force the UK government to intervene in some way (because they are undermining UK law and policy in important ways) so they can scream ‘we need independence’ louder and louder. While polishing their ‘right side of history’/‘more progressive than England’ haloes at the same time.

^It’s an opportunity to pass laws that will
force the UK government to intervene in some way (because they are undermining UK law and policy in important ways) so they can scream ‘we need independence’ louder and louder. While polishing their ‘right side of history’/‘more progressive than England’ haloes at the same time.^

The problem is this will.massively backfire on them. It would be a good tactic if it was something the Scottish public wanted, but they don't want these changes to the GRA. It's just going to make many hard yes indy supporters, like me, reconsider and many will be grateful to WM for overturning this.

'trans children know who they are from 6 or 7'? Is she seriously suggesting GRCs for 6 year old kids?

I honestly think she maybe needs a wee break and a long rest.

While this makes sense, as a strategy it is entirely undermined by the fact that two-thirds of Scottish people don't support the GRR, and will no doubt breathe a sigh of relief if Westminster intervenes.

The SNP really are scoring a massive own goal with this one.

I think if they'd accepted some of the safeguarding amendments, this would actually make for a Bill that the majority of MSPs would be happy to back.

I still think it would be shit, but ceding to amendments would make it possible for MSPs to claim they'd taken steps to protect women/children etc, and give them all plausible deniability once the inevitable incidents start to pile up.

So why not try to improve on the Bill? They've refused to even agree to safeguards wrt rapists, ffs. Rapists are not usually a demographic that politicians are keen to show support for.

Is there a way to watch this live?

This survey is pertinent (and depressing).

'A huge 2:1 majority of Scots believe the Scottish Government’s proposed new “gender recognition” laws pose a safety risk to women.'

BUT

'by a margin of 3 to 2, SNP voters who have an opinion either way also say that the reforms make them MORE likely to vote for the SNP.'

wingsoverscotland.com/why-do-snp-voters-hate-women/

Yes, Ham, link in the OP.