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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

214 replies

beastlyslumber · 15/12/2022 09:59

This is a brilliant conversation with Yasmine Mohammed, talking about how liberal feminism has betrayed women and girls, what the wearing of hijab really means for girls, how women are being enslaved and tortured by Sharia law. And why feminists need to start caring.

open.spotify.com/episode/4yNPedvPGE2lZ4uPtYViot

That's the spotify link. I'll link it on apple music as well: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e208-yasmine-mohammed-discusses-how-western-liberals/id1437447846?i=1000587384528

Hopefully one of those links will work for you!

Yasmine Mohammed, author of Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam , shares her story of growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic home in Canada. At 13, when she tried to report the abuse she suffered at the hands of her step-father, she was told by a judge “you come from a different culture, and that’s how your family chooses to discipline you, so we just have to accept that.”

And here lies the inherent contradiction in the way in which the West views fundamentalist Islam versus other fundamentalist religions, and turns a blind eye to the abuse and suffering of millions of girls and women. She and Bridget discuss how alienating that is, the message those girls receive is “we don’t care about you, you are ‘other.'”

They cover the escalation of rape culture, sexual harassment, the problems with celebrating the hijab, the indoctrination of attitudes towards girls and women in Muslim culture, and being called Islamophobic for criticizing a tool and system of oppression. They bond over shared traumatic experiences and discuss their belief that if you can use your own trauma to help others, it has not happened in vain. If you only ever listen to one episode of Walk-Ins Welcome, this is the episode.

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 15:58

They could have the good grace to listen to the first 15 minutes or so of the podcast, surely?

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:00

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 15:45

Both Emmmie and CleanTheChicken made it clear they were Muslim.

That wasn’t all they had in common. They both posted prohibitively.

Actually @Emmmie didn't. She pointed out that one Muslim could not speak for all Muslim women, just as she herself could not speak for all Muslim women and say that they all liked wearing a hijab. She asked that we listened to all women's viewpoints. And then she got asked to stop putting forward her viewpoint.

If you cannot see the problem with that the fair enough, but to me the response to her was problematic

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 16:05

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:00

Actually @Emmmie didn't. She pointed out that one Muslim could not speak for all Muslim women, just as she herself could not speak for all Muslim women and say that they all liked wearing a hijab. She asked that we listened to all women's viewpoints. And then she got asked to stop putting forward her viewpoint.

If you cannot see the problem with that the fair enough, but to me the response to her was problematic

She said “I mean let's educate poor feeble minded women, they just don't see how stupid they are being.” - without even listening to it, very early in the thread.

That prejudice and sarcasm didn’t give the impression of someone willing to engage, just an intention to put people down for having the conversation.

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:09

Okay, well I'm sorry if either poster was offended (although not sure why they need you to be offended on their behalf) but it didn't seem like either of them was actually interested in the discussion. They seemed to want the discussion not to happen and I wanted to allow it to
happen.

But one way or another I guess it was always going to get derailed.

OP posts:
Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:12

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:09

Okay, well I'm sorry if either poster was offended (although not sure why they need you to be offended on their behalf) but it didn't seem like either of them was actually interested in the discussion. They seemed to want the discussion not to happen and I wanted to allow it to
happen.

But one way or another I guess it was always going to get derailed.

I didn't say they were offended, I wouldnt speak on their behalf. I didn't say I was offended on their behalf. I just pointed out the inconsistency in approach.

And I am unsure how asking the question

Out of interest, if Muslim people are not allowed to join the conversation, or are only allowed to join if they have a view point you agree with, how precisely is feminism going to help them?

Is derailing a thread entitled 'how feminism has let down Muslim girls and women'

Seems pretty pertinent to me

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:14

That prejudice and sarcasm didn’t give the impression of someone willing to engage, just an intention to put people down for having the conversation.

That could be said of more than those two posters though

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 16:17

if Muslim people are not allowed to join the conversation,

Everyone can join the conversation, if they aren’t trying to stop it happening and are willing to engage with the OP.

or are only allowed to join if they have a view point you agree with,

Engaging with the OP isn’t the same as agreeing with the OP.

how precisely is feminism going to help them?

This last point doesn’t follow from the other two unproven points.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 16:18

Ohtheweatheroutsideistoocold · 16/12/2022 16:14

That prejudice and sarcasm didn’t give the impression of someone willing to engage, just an intention to put people down for having the conversation.

That could be said of more than those two posters though

They weren’t the only two told to listen to the podcast- someone else was complaining about the word ‘feminists’ in the OP, but didn’t come back and labour the issue, so a firm line didn’t need to be taken.

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HBGKC · 16/12/2022 16:21

@beastlyslumber could you link to 'the very long thread discussing the influx of males from Muslim countries into the UK?' pls?
I missed it.

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 16:22

HBGKC · 16/12/2022 16:21

@beastlyslumber could you link to 'the very long thread discussing the influx of males from Muslim countries into the UK?' pls?
I missed it.

Yes - but I don't know how to do that on my phone! Will be back in a while and if someone hasn't given you the link in the meantime, I'll do it then!

OP posts:
LangClegsInSpace · 16/12/2022 16:32

It should be about choice. That's all.

I'm not sure about this. It's a bit third-wave 'choicy' feminism isn't it?

It's the same argument that crops up on discussions about make up, hair removal, cosmetic surgery, BDSM, 'sex work', surrogacy ... etc. etc. etc.

It's not usual on this forum for posters to say, 'Oh well, as long as it's your / their choice, that's that, discussion closed.' Usually we dig a bit deeper than that and explore the cultural meanings and the effects on all women and girls, not just on those who make whatever choice it is, but also on those who don't, as well as those who are effectively forced into it.

Why is this different?

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 17:15

It's not usual on this forum for posters to say, 'Oh well, as long as it's your / their choice, that's that, discussion closed.' Usually we dig a bit deeper than that and explore the cultural meanings and the effects on all women and girls, not just on those who make whatever choice it is, but also on those who don't, as well as those who are effectively forced into it.

This is what really struck me about what YM was saying. It's misleading to call it a choice if the options are "do this and you're safe," or "don't do this and you'll get raped" - which is one of the ways she describes that girls are taught about wearing hijab and covering their hair. It's not really a choice if you think you're going to be raped and go to hell and your family will disown you. YM describes that as an adult, she stopped wearing hijab and her mother stopped speaking to her. In that kind of cultural context, how can it be called a choice? A choice implies the freedom to choose otherwise.

While I do understand the pressures on women to wear thongs, for example, it isn't directly comparable. Because Western women can choose to not do that and there aren't really any consequences of that choice. Same with make up, cosmetic surgery, fashion. You might be treated somewhat differently in certain contexts, but you won't be punished and outcast (the exception being workplaces insisting on make up, high heels etc.) Plus these are things that adult women do, not children. I think these things meet the criteria of 'choices' far more often than hijab wearing.

Why is this different?

I think precisely because of this idea that Muslim girls are 'other' and so what would be intolerable for Western women is fine for them. Plus the fear of being called Islamophobic and the general abandonment of women and girls to their own fate. It's hard to even try to have these conversations!

OP posts:
LangClegsInSpace · 16/12/2022 17:30

Yes, you were trying to have a thread about fundamentalist Islam and it got derailed into a discussion about hijab generally, and none of the other stuff. Sorry for adding to the derail.

But for a lot of women hijab is a choice and I think that's where some posters are coming from. I just don't see why that means the topic is off limits.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 17:42

If you think about it, no other religion has the word ‘phobia’ attached to it, to label anyone who criticises it. You have homophobia (which is pretty genuine - some people do have an irrational fear of homosexuals), ‘transphobia’ - which as a word doesn’t even make sense, unless you first accept the premise that trans is a thing, and Islamophobia. What’s so special about Islam that it gets to call its critics ‘phobic’? No Christophobia, Hindophobia, Jainophobia, etc, as far as I’m aware.

Islam has been above criticism for a good few decades now, so I think there is a slight pearl-clutching shock people have if anyone ‘who should know better than to be phobic’ criticises It.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 17:44

My last post was responding to:

Why is this different?

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 17:50

I don't know - is part of it just the defensiveness that we all feel when our actions are criticised? That's understandable. Obviously I know some Muslim women who wear hijab out of choice. But I've also met a lot of Muslim women who have been forced into hijab since infancy, and all the other stuff that goes along with it.

Yes, of course, as an adult woman you should be free to choose how you dress and express yourself, and I would defend that right. But that doesn't mean that everyone else has had the same free choice as you. And it doesn't mean you can choose for others.

The thing is that I hear the voices of Muslim women saying hijab is their choice, that they're free and women are respected within Islam and so on. But whenever we try to listen to Muslim and ex-Muslim women's stories of their experiences, we are shouted down. And those women are persecuted and attacked. Yet we know that they're not just speaking for themselves - the treatment of women under Sharia law is disgusting and terrifying. So why are their voices so often silenced, while the voices of people saying 'it's a choice' are amplified?

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 17:53

And yes, what tea said above. Islam is above criticism in a way that no other religion could hope for these days. Even in Ireland, you had Father Ted. But people get killed and beheaded just for sharing cartoons of Mohammed. (Who married a six-year-old child, let's not forget that when we're talking about the experiences of girls and women in Islam.)

OP posts:
nepeta · 16/12/2022 17:53

I haven't watched that conversation yet, so probably shouldn't post, but there are certain general aspects to various feminist debates I have participated in the past which seem relevant here.

One is the question if human rights are a universal concept, somehow in their essence the same for all human beings and therefore should be made the rule everywhere, or if human rights are culture-specific, to be separately determined by each culture (and if so, how is that done in authoritarian cultures), or if they are some combination of these two so that some things are declared unacceptable everywhere (say cannibalism and slavery), while others may be allowed (say subjugation of women or child labour etc.).

Those who believe that the essence of human rights is a universal concept often get into fights with those who believe that each culture should decide on their own. The so-called 'choice feminism' tries to find a way around this conflict, but in my view unsuccessfully. Many feminist groups I have been involved with end up not discussing anything about women's status in cultures of the countries which at some point were colonised by some European powers, as here the question of colonialism and racism also rear their ugly heads. And then the question of white saviourism and, when it is Islam that is discussed, the question of Islamophobia.

The effect that, however, can mean that international feminist sites stay silent about some of the worst infringements of women's rights. The right then exploits that to argue that Western feminists are self-centered and don't care about women elsewhere.

The best way forwards would, of course, be to let the feminists voices in the affected cultures be heard and support feminism in those areas with funds, and that is being done. But most women in Afghanistan today can't really speak, because the Taliban won't let them.

My second point is that feminist theory should go back to the foundations much more than is being done. For instance, there is a difference between criticising religious women who follow patriarchal religions and the study and criticism of the tenets of those patriarchal religions themselves.

Why is it that Christianity worships the father and the son, for instance, but not the mother and the daughter (though virgin Mary does have a somewhat lower but still respected role in Catholicism)?

Why has the role of clerics been denied from women in almost all religions?

Why are so many religious rules written differently for men and women, and why are those differences such that men become the leaders in the societies following those religions while women seem to be responsible for all sexual gatekeeping when they clearly cannot keep that gate shut?

These may sound too obvious points to make, of course, but when we use choice feminism it's good to understand what it is that we are really choosing and why. (The same applies, of course, to such choices as going along with sexist norms in popular culture about how women should dress and look.)

Third, these debates will always be difficult because women belong to different tribes and some of the discussions happen across tribal borders. Many of us don't like to see their own cultures criticised by outsiders, and in particular those outsiders who haven't done much research into that culture or its multiple different aspects. I think that learning as much as possible about other cultures is very important here, and it is equally important to learn about the histories of them and the history of women's rights globally.

EndlessTea · 16/12/2022 17:58

As with defenders of ‘sex work’, surrogacy, etc, as a ‘choice’, the defensiveness isn’t about having your choices criticised, it is about the whole patriarchal shit show underpinning it being exposed, which you are both heavily invested in and bound to, which makes your choice not a free choice, and your not wanting to contemplate all you may want to change and give up once you see it.

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 18:06

Interesting points, Nepeta, and I broadly agree. But on this:

These debates will always be difficult because women belong to different tribes and some of the discussions happen across tribal borders. Many of us don't like to see their own cultures criticised by outsiders, and in particular those outsiders who haven't done much research into that culture or its multiple different aspects. I think that learning as much as possible about other cultures is very important here, and it is equally important to learn about the histories of them and the history of women's rights globally.

I don't disagree, but part of the issue is that Islam and Sharia law have gained influence and legitimacy within Western culture. So that makes the question of who are the outsiders a bit more tricky. And there's a point, too, about whether Muslims should learn more about Western culture and women's rights (discussed at length on the thread previously mentioned) rather than Westerners learning more about Islam. Is it okay for me to say I don't want Sharia law in the city I grew up in, even if I'm not Muslim and haven't read the Qu'ran?

OP posts:
HBGKC · 16/12/2022 18:26

Thanks for the link to the other thread, @EndlessTea

nepeta · 16/12/2022 18:29

beastlyslumber · 16/12/2022 18:06

Interesting points, Nepeta, and I broadly agree. But on this:

These debates will always be difficult because women belong to different tribes and some of the discussions happen across tribal borders. Many of us don't like to see their own cultures criticised by outsiders, and in particular those outsiders who haven't done much research into that culture or its multiple different aspects. I think that learning as much as possible about other cultures is very important here, and it is equally important to learn about the histories of them and the history of women's rights globally.

I don't disagree, but part of the issue is that Islam and Sharia law have gained influence and legitimacy within Western culture. So that makes the question of who are the outsiders a bit more tricky. And there's a point, too, about whether Muslims should learn more about Western culture and women's rights (discussed at length on the thread previously mentioned) rather than Westerners learning more about Islam. Is it okay for me to say I don't want Sharia law in the city I grew up in, even if I'm not Muslim and haven't read the Qu'ran?

I agree, in that the discussion changes when a country is multi-cultural (however that is exactly defined) and when the values and rules from one culture begin affecting individuals who don't belong to it. This matters for women quite a bit because sexism has different forms in different cultures. We do need open discussions about this without the stigmatising of women who want to discuss this, as it affects all women in the geographical area.

And I also strongly agree that everyone should learn about other cultures, including the mainstream culture of the country they live in.

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