How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

[beastlyslumber]

This is a brilliant conversation with Yasmine Mohammed, talking about how liberal feminism has betrayed women and girls, what the wearing of hijab really means for girls, how women are being enslaved and tortured by Sharia law. And why feminists need to start caring.

open.spotify.com/episode/4yNPedvPGE2lZ4uPtYViot

That's the spotify link. I'll link it on apple music as well: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e208-yasmine-mohammed-discusses-how-western-liberals/id1437447846?i=1000587384528

Hopefully one of those links will work for you!

Yasmine Mohammed, author of Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam , shares her story of growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic home in Canada. At 13, when she tried to report the abuse she suffered at the hands of her step-father, she was told by a judge “you come from a different culture, and that’s how your family chooses to discipline you, so we just have to accept that.”

And here lies the inherent contradiction in the way in which the West views fundamentalist Islam versus other fundamentalist religions, and turns a blind eye to the abuse and suffering of millions of girls and women. She and Bridget discuss how alienating that is, the message those girls receive is “we don’t care about you, you are ‘other.'”

They cover the escalation of rape culture, sexual harassment, the problems with celebrating the hijab, the indoctrination of attitudes towards girls and women in Muslim culture, and being called Islamophobic for criticizing a tool and system of oppression. They bond over shared traumatic experiences and discuss their belief that if you can use your own trauma to help others, it has not happened in vain. If you only ever listen to one episode of Walk-Ins Welcome, this is the episode.

I think it would have helped if you had stated clearly in your opening post what this discussion is about. If you think hijab should be banned here, then why not just say so?
I'm not convinced that banning hijab here will help women here or in Iran or Afghanistan.

Western politicians wear hijab when visiting Iran because its the current law. You can claim they are facilitating the regime; others might see this more as a 'step by step approach, like the one politicians used when facilitating the peace process in Northern Ireland.

Negotiators attempt to bring parties to the table to negotiate and set parameters for acceptable behaviours;
gjia.georgetown.edu/2020/04/16/peace-in-northern-ireland-model-for-ending-wars/

I don't think any politicians think we are close to achieving that with extremist countries such as Iran or Afghanistan. In fact, things seem to be getting worse, even the UN are taking a step back.
And its a separate issue to our Muslim neighbours here in the West and their rights. Demanding women abandon hijab is effectively a demand that they leave their faith, their families and their community.
It might also mean there are women trapped at home, and thats not effective feminism imo.

I did state it clearly! It's about the podcast and what people think of the issues raised in the podcast.

The thread veered off into talking about the hijab but that's not what the OP is about. I tried to keep the thread on topic but got told that's not fair. So here we are.

It's not me who made that claim about women politicians wearing hijab; it was Masih Alinejad. I agree with her, but you should at least have the respect to attribute people's words accurately, especially on a thread where I'm repeatedly being told I'm not respecting Muslim women's voices. At least I'm listening enough to know who's saying what.

I know you didn't say that, its why I put the paragraph break there. You seem determined to take offence.

I'm pissed off with the bullshit people have been throwing at me on this thread so maybe I am being a bit defensive, but you did say "you can claim" - the paragraph break didn't do anything to alert me that you meant something different.

But I apologise for being defensive. I spent a long time reading and responding to resources a pp posted and instead of engaging they just flounced! It's almost like some people don't actually want to discuss the issues, they just want me to shut up.

Beastlyslumber you are putting considerable energy and attention into this thread, you are getting too many predictable and tedious responses.

The recent flounce was ridiculous. Suddenly using the word ‘resistant’ or ‘bollocks’ is just too much.🤦‍♀️

I have a feeling that the links were provided to inconvenience you, and when you had the grace to read them, the ‘gotcha’ being set up “oh you tell me to listen to your podcast, but you won’t read my links about ‘white feminists’ being the bogeymen. See it’s proof you are islamophobic.. la la la”, failed, so what’s left to do but flounce at that point?

Thank you, tea. I have a feeling you are right!

Yes, beastly - strange, but not surprising. Kudos to you for ploughing through the links and addressing them.

Thanks TheBio. I genuinely welcome people bringing other views and voices and I'm happy to engage with anyone who disagrees with me. I just wish that people would actually read and listen, too, so we can have a useful conversation!

Having said that, in between the nonsense there have been some really interesting discussions on this thread and some brilliant contributions. And I'm happy to see the best arguments from the opposing side, too.

Agreed, there have been some useful and thoughtful posts.

Hi OP.

First of all, a few dislaimers.

I am not the government of Afghanistan, Iran or any other country. I am not an authority in religion by any means. I am just a Muslim woman who wears the hijab and who is a part of a Muslim community. I am also a mother of a spectacular young lady who does not wear the hijab at all times because she doesn't want to. I am here to offer my perspective.

Do I believe that every single woman enjoys wearing hijab? Of course not! Is hijab forced sometimes! Yes, of course it is. Do I believe in forcing the hijab? No, I do not.

Believe me, I fully understand the complexity of the hijab and how it all relates both culturally and religiously. Hijab envokes a large spectrum of feelings in women. These feelings range anywhere from protecting the hijab with their life to not wanting to wear a hijab at the cost of losing their life. It is all extremely complicated and probably hard to understand by non-Muslim cultures.

The point it, a woman feels about hijab the way she feels. Her feelings are valid. Period. How patronising to assume that any Muslim woman is not mentally capable to fully understand what hijab means TO HER whether she is for or against it.

You may dislike Islam/Muslims etc. but
I hope that even you can try and appreciate that it feels truly terrible to have an ex-Muslim, Islam-hater such as Yasmine M. trying to speak on behalf of all Muslims as if she was chosen by us to do so, telling women (willingly) wearing the hijab what wearing the hijab REALLY means, how awful it is and how she should really be feeling about it. And then some posters then justifying the hate by saying ooh no , it's okay, Jasmine is a Muslim too. She most certainly is not and even if she was she could never speak for all of us.

People like Yasmine and Ayaan are not speaking for Muslim women, they are speaking over us, silencing us, minimising us, making it harder for us to integrate into society because the only way they paint us to others is oppressed, weak, trapped, no mind of our own, slaves to men etc. Being silenced by a woman feels exactly the same as being silenced by a man. What is the difference?

Muslim women are not weak. Nothing could be further from the truth. Do you know how much strength it takes to walk out wearing a hijab in the west, fully knowing you may get harrassed, to attend job interviews only to keep scanning the facial expressions for dissappointment when they see what you are wearing. There are countless examples. However, I think we are being heard more and we are slowly making progress from being seen as weak, oppressed, uneducated half-beings to just regular women which is great.

But then I see Islam hater Yasmine M. "Educating" Muslim women and others on the "real" meaning of hijab and the panic sets in. Is this the beginning of forceful hijab removal? Will there be a backlash against Muslims now? Am I now back to being seen as an oppressed little wifey with no mind of her own?

Besides, how does Yasmine want the society to stop women from wearing hijab? Shaming? Fines? Job terminations? Denying healthcare? Prison? Forceful disrobing and hijab removal on the street? I can tell you right now none of these would stop me from wearing my hijab. So, what is the answer?

I will always support Muslim women who do not want to wear the hijab. I already do. What I don't and cannot support is demonising an entire religion (any religion) and all its followers. This is nothing short of hate speech and extremism and it just makes such individuals lose all credibility.

You would think Muslim women would worship someone like Jasmine or Ayaan because they are our supposed great liberators. In truth, while they may speak for some Muslim women, they are intensly disliked by the rest us because of their simplified, exaggarated, sensasionalist and black/white view on things and because their hate speech has caused us so much pain and encouraged that much more discrimination by people who were already looking for any excuse to hurt us.

Support Muslim women by supporting our decision to wear the hijab or not to wear it.

Please don't try to tell us how we should be feeling. Some of us already get enough of that.

In the end, let just support each other because as a woman I have never in my entire life felt so vulnerable as I do right now and it has nothing to do with being a Muslim or wearing hijab.

Sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier. I've been ill and it's also a busy time of the year. I will listen to the conversation tonight, but I do have the book Unveiled and have read it so I have an idea of Yasmine Mohammed's views. And thanks.

How patronising to assume that any Muslim woman is not mentally capable to fully understand what hijab means TO HER whether she is for or against it.

I don't assume that.

By the way, the thread and podcast are not about the hijab alone. The discussion seems to have focused on that, but the thread was intended to allow discussion of all the issues raised in the podcast, which go way beyond hijab alone.

You may dislike Islam/Muslims

What a strange thing to say. I don't dislike Muslims! As for 'disliking' Islam - I'd say I don't have any more respect for it than I do for any other religion. And aspects of Islam, such as Sharia law, seem self-evidently anti-woman and dangerous.

People like Yasmine and Ayaan are not speaking for Muslim women, they are speaking over us, silencing us, minimising us, making it harder for us to integrate into society because the only way they paint us to others is oppressed, weak, trapped, no mind of our own, slaves to men etc.

Could you please quote or link some examples of this? Timestamps from the podcast maybe? Because I haven't observed either woman painting that picture in the way you suggest. In what I've read and listened to, they talk about women who do not have the freedom of choice in how they live - for example, women in Iran. Certainly I don't see them charactering women as weak, rather the opposite. I think it's bloody incredible to see Iranian women risking their lives to fight for their freedom. Nothing weak about that!

Besides, how does Yasmine want the society to stop women from wearing hijab? Shaming? Fines? Job terminations? Denying healthcare? Prison? Forceful disrobing and hijab removal on the street? I can tell you right now none of these would stop me from wearing my hijab. So, what is the answer?

Did you listen to the podcast? She isn't campaigning against the hijab.

What I don't and cannot support is demonising an entire religion (any religion) and all its followers. This is nothing short of hate speech and extremism and it just makes such individuals lose all credibility.

I'm not sure I know which individuals you're talking about here? Links?

Support Muslim women by supporting our decision to wear the hijab or not to wear it.

Yes, as long as it's a woman's free choice, I don't see the hijab as problematic in itself. But much of this particular discussion has been about the forced wearing of hijab and the forcing of girls to wear hijab. As you say, we should support the decision not to wear it as well. I support the women in Iran who are laying down their lives for their right to choose.

Please don't try to tell us how we should be feeling. Some of us already get enough of that.

No problem. No intention of telling you how to feel. As I've said many times, I wanted to discuss the issues raised in the podcast. Would love you to let me know what specifically in the podcast you disagreed with and could provide a different point of view on. Or if you want to stay focused on the issue of wearing hijab, did you read the resources a pp linked, from Muslim women arguing for the wearing of hijab? I responded to those upthread. What did you think of them? Did you agree with their points? Why? What did you disagree with in my responses? Let's talk about it.

Hope you're feeling better now! I want to read Unveiled - it's on my list.