How feminists have let down Muslim women and girls

[beastlyslumber]

This is a brilliant conversation with Yasmine Mohammed, talking about how liberal feminism has betrayed women and girls, what the wearing of hijab really means for girls, how women are being enslaved and tortured by Sharia law. And why feminists need to start caring.

open.spotify.com/episode/4yNPedvPGE2lZ4uPtYViot

That's the spotify link. I'll link it on apple music as well: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e208-yasmine-mohammed-discusses-how-western-liberals/id1437447846?i=1000587384528

Hopefully one of those links will work for you!

Yasmine Mohammed, author of Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam , shares her story of growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic home in Canada. At 13, when she tried to report the abuse she suffered at the hands of her step-father, she was told by a judge “you come from a different culture, and that’s how your family chooses to discipline you, so we just have to accept that.”

And here lies the inherent contradiction in the way in which the West views fundamentalist Islam versus other fundamentalist religions, and turns a blind eye to the abuse and suffering of millions of girls and women. She and Bridget discuss how alienating that is, the message those girls receive is “we don’t care about you, you are ‘other.'”

They cover the escalation of rape culture, sexual harassment, the problems with celebrating the hijab, the indoctrination of attitudes towards girls and women in Muslim culture, and being called Islamophobic for criticizing a tool and system of oppression. They bond over shared traumatic experiences and discuss their belief that if you can use your own trauma to help others, it has not happened in vain. If you only ever listen to one episode of Walk-Ins Welcome, this is the episode.

You may not wish to admit to bias, unconscious or otherwise. But there is a difference in your tone when you are posting to the two people I've mentioned compared to other posters

i really don't think the OP treated those posters differently - from the start of the thread others had also been directed to listen to the podcast before commenting on the issues. Perhaps the OP was tired of having to repeatedly make the same point and was more abrupt, but if so I honestly didn't notice.

Thanks TheBio. I just don't have much patience for all this shite these days. I want to have conversations with people who can be bothered to engage. I'm not really interested in hearing from people who are completely entrenched in positions I've seen a thousand times. I'd like to hear from people saying, here's what I think YM gets wrong and here's why. But if pp just want to tell me off for using the wrong words or not having the right opinions, I cannot bring myself to care. I think it's stupid and childish. (Hope this comment stands as my last comment saying this was deleted.)

I would have had a convo about whether US style liberalism is the issue (rather than feminism), and how its a well funded top down movement with a high social media profile.

YM describes herself as a liberal. Her book is about liberals. So I think she does see that as the problem rather than feminism per se. But feminism is part of liberalism (in general terms) and a chunk of their discussion is about the concerns of liberal Feminists compared to the needs of women and girls living basically in slavery.

It's not just in the US that this is a problem either. Feminists here won't stand against fgm. When posie objected to seeing little girls in hijab she was called racist and feminists cancelled her.

Excellent post, thank you.

Yes, 'phobia' is applied in weird, specific ways. 'Whorephobia' is another one.

Thank you for your persistence. These are uncomfortable but important conversations and it's obvious some people don't want us to have them.

And yy about entrenched positions. I can feel your frustration.

Thanks LangClegsinSpace. One thing I am sure of is that these issues aren't just going to magically go away with #nodebate. So many women and girls have no voice and I feel we have an obligation to fight for their rights as well as our own.

I am inclined to agree with you hear beastlyslumber. I feel the onus is on newcomers to learn about the history and culture of the land where they have settled. It enables a full participation in society. I get that if you are raised in a military compound or something, it would be harder, but you should still learn.

Imo learning about cultures and histories which are not particularly relevant to the land you are settled in, is more of a pleasure and interest and not a ‘should’, unless you work in immigration or HR and you have a lot of foreign workers in your organisation, or you do a lot of international work.

There’s also a danger that you can be a bit of a dangerous mug like George Galloway saying to Saddam Hussein “Sir, I salute you” after being shown around a tightly orchestrated and sanitised version of Iraq, if you are too worthy about ‘learning about other cultures’. At the end of the day, we are all human beings and averse to the same things. The Canadians who let down Yasmine Mohammed probably thought they did the right thing, ‘learning about her culture’, a very sanitised view, so they couldn’t even recognise horrendous abuse when it was staring them in the face.

I remember King Charles was trying to bring Sharia courts to the UK, idiot, but mercifully that didn’t go down because you can’t practically have two different systems of law in the same place.

Yes! In Unpacking Queer Politics, Sheila Jeffreys talks about how in San Francisco they went a bit nuts with branding any criticism as a phobia. Even ‘leatherman phobia’. So ridiculous to dress up as a terrifying dom, and call people phobic for being scared! I actually think it is pretty rational for people to be a bit scared about the rapid rise of an ideology with a thing about issuing fatwas, and fighting holy wars against unbelievers.
But ‘whorephobia’ fgs - for a start, how offensive to collectively call people in prostitution the pejorative ‘whores’? It doesn’t sound like you’re on their side.

Here not hear

The Canadians who let down Yasmine Mohammed probably thought they did the right thing, ‘learning about her culture’, a very sanitised view, so they couldn’t even recognise horrendous abuse when it was staring them in the face.

Agreed. I also think there is a degree of gaslighting going on (not on this thread, but in the media generally) where we are told that Islam is a religion of peace and to question that makes you Islamophobic. But what are we supposed to make of the radicalised youth training to be suicide bombers, or teachers being beheaded, or artists being attacked and murdered? What about honour killings, acid attacks, FGM, forced marriage and rape gangs? We are told, well that's nothing to do with Islam. And that we should learn about Islam and read the Qu'ran. Like the problem that should most concern us is Islamophobia, not terrorist attacks and VAWG in the name of Islam.

I maybe haven't expressed that very well. I'm not terribly interested in Islam as a religion; I'm very interested in how women and girls are treated and how my own life is affected by the accomodation of other people's religions and beliefs.

I actually think it is pretty rational for people to be a bit scared about the rapid rise of an ideology with a thing about issuing fatwas, and fighting holy wars against unbelievers.

I think if you're a religious studies teacher, or a film maker, or an artist, or a cartoonist, or an ex-Muslim, then you would be completely within your rights to be terrified.

I agree OP. As a feminist I can't support many Islamic practices (and those of many other religions), nor do I see it as a religion of peace. Unfortunately it isn't possible to have a realistic discussion without screams of Islamaphobia. No doubt MN will delete this soon for 'racism'.

I hope not, supernormative. I don't think this debate is going to go away so we might as well start to get comfortable talking about it.

@beastlyslumber Unfortunately MN usually does delete threads like this. Criticising Islam is seen as deeply disrespectful, much more so than criticising Christianity. I have worked and travelled in many Muslim countries and unfortunately the attitudes of many men are very anti feminist. I once had a discussion with a Muslim man in London, who I thought very lovely, but when I asked him where all the women were outside the Mosque on a Friday, he looked at me like I had two heads and said 'but they are in the home, raising the children, which is the most important job. They are not for the eyes of other men'. It was a real eye opener in to the fundamental attitude of a very kind, peaceful man.

Did you listen to the podcast? What did you think about their discussion?

We are told, well that's nothing to do with Islam. And that we should learn about Islam and read the Qu'ran.

Yes, Yasmine Mohammed touches on this. Russel Brand apparently defended it, saying it was a religion of peace and was asked “have you read the Qu’ran”, to which he had to confess he hadn’t. YM talks about how repetitive and violent and gristly it is.

I was really pissed off when my kids were taken to a mosque for school (which I have no problem with) and the imam said “people say that Islam is a bad religion for women, but it is the best, most respectful religion towards women”. I told my kids that’s a lie and thought about complaining to the school.

I am a bit of a ‘belief’ nerd, quite fascinated, also, about the history of belief and how ideas spread. If you read the Old Testament, you think “woah - that’s a bit harsh”, and the tone of the New Testament is really different. Actually peaceful and forgiving I think the crux is: “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

The interesting thing is about the relationship between the rise of Christianity and the fall of the Roman Empire, how they were intertwined because Christianity was a grassroots, non-centralised, anti-authoritarian religion, spread by lots of small groups, the message was enough by itself, so the Empire needed to adopt Christianity in order to revive itself from its death throes and carry any authority with the Europeans, it became the Catholic Church.

Islam came later, it wasn’t a grass roots religion, it was the ‘Arab conquests’ led by Mohammed in the seventh century. And I know we are told about how awful the crusaders were, but that was actually a counter-attack. So it wasn’t spread by ‘peace’ it was spread by war.

Furthermore, it reversed the “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Christian message, back to Sharia, which is like the Old Testament.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/honestly-with-bari-weiss/id1570872415?i=1000581903549

This podcast with Bari Weiss and the Iranian journalist Masih Alinejad is BRILLIANT. It really lays bare the hypocrisy of liberal feminists, especially in the US.

When I tried to have a conversation with someone I trusted about how I felt religious clothing was oppressive and sexist I was called a bigot, racist, xenophobic, ignorant etc etc. I've never felt comfortable trying to have the conversation again.

That looks really interesting, thanks! Will cue that up for a listen today.

@beastlyslumber you won't regret it.

Interesting @EndlessTea. I have read the Quran and was shocked. It's like the Old Testament in its violence and it's clear that Islam is based on a deeply misogynistic and violent tribal religion. Many religions came from similar places but Islam stands out with the continual adherence to these ways. Married women were expected to cover their hair in medieval Christianity but fortunately this stopped hundreds of years ago, and even then Christian women were not hit for a wisp of hair showing, as happens in some Muslim countries today.

I'd love to see an honest discussion about the hijab, the burka, and other forms of covering. Plus things like a woman's testimony being worth less than a man's etc.

I know Wikipedia isn’t the greatest resource, but it is worth looking into the origins of Islam to understand why all the violence in the Quran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests

The early Muslim conquests or early Islamic conquests (Arabic: الْفُتُوحَاتُ الإسْلَامِيَّة, el-Fütûhât el-İslâmiyye),[4] also referred to as the Arab conquests,[5] were initiated in the 7th century by Muhammad, the main Islamic prophet. He established a new unified polity in Arabia that expanded rapidly under the Rashidun Caliphate and the Umayyad Caliphate, culminating in Islamic rule being established across three continents. According to Scottish historian James Buchan: "In speed and extent, the first Arab conquests were matched only by those of Alexander the Great, and they were more lasting."[6]

It would be the equivalent of a religion founded by Alexander the Great or Napoleon, or other belligerent conquerors. It’s a little absurd to suggest islam is a doctrine of peace. When I told my daughter that ‘Islam’ literally means ‘submit’ she was gobsmacked.

That's exactly it @EndlessTea. I'm a medieval historian and I find it frustrating when the Crusades are used as an example of Christian violence but the origins of Islam are rarely mentioned. Mohammed was a war lord and the Alexander the Great/Napoleon comparison is an excellent one.