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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So that's why Susie Green left

877 replies

DistantVworp · 02/12/2022 13:27

Charity commission launches formal inquiry into Mermaids:
twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1598666394610147329?s=20&t=x_Supvwk6lHkKBR7a-ESSw

About bloody time!

OP posts:
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TheKeatingFive · 10/02/2023 18:21

I don't understand how this happened? Where were the risk assessments, medical trials, safeguarding procedures, ethics reviews, record keeping that I would assume are standard in new medical approaches?

Was I wrong about that? Or what happened in this case?

SlicerAndEcho · 10/02/2023 18:22

Some of these young people are going to get such a rude awakening when they interact with the rest of the world.

I know we’ve talked before about the link with anime, manga (especially yaoi) and fanfic, but I’m really worried about how much they’re feeding each other and reinforcing each other through these areas.

I read fanfic and before you open it there are lists of the themes in any given fic. The trans fics are appearing more and more, and StellaAndCrow’s posts reminded me that in the last couple of weeks I’ve seen several saying they involve enlarged clitoris sex (although I don’t think that’s the term they used, I don’t remember it). I think much like yaoi presented « gay » male relationships in a very unrealistic way and led some girls to believe that’s what they’re looking for, reading these fics is going to make some of them believe that people are going to want to pretend an enlarged clitoris is a penis (or even more unbelievably, not see the difference).

Crouton19 · 10/02/2023 18:24

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 12:24

Dunno why my phone decided to shout Ukraine out loud but here is Lena who makes estrogen injections at home in Kiev:

lena.kiev.ua/?lat#eng

For those unable to buy via a private prescription, is there a market for “homemade” synthetic hormones? In the 90s/00s there were cases of people making drugs in basement home labs to sell online but the next generation is apparently into clean living and not so much popping pills, so I had wondered what became of the basement chemists.

ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 18:30

Crouton19 · 10/02/2023 18:24

For those unable to buy via a private prescription, is there a market for “homemade” synthetic hormones? In the 90s/00s there were cases of people making drugs in basement home labs to sell online but the next generation is apparently into clean living and not so much popping pills, so I had wondered what became of the basement chemists.

Here’s an American who bought from Lena:

medium.com/prismnpen/lenas-bathtub-brew-for-trans-women-3be429f216af

A lot of the Keffal’s Kerfuffle (long story) was about similar black and grey market hormones supplied to teens:

Testosterone is a controlled substance so not so easy to just order online (gotta get that from the gym bros or GenderGP)

So that's why Susie Green left
Backstreets · 10/02/2023 18:32

The way adults like Susie Green hurt their children (I have negative compassion for porn soaked adult men who want to be known as Sailor Starshine she/her, but I could cry thinking about cases like Jackie or Jazz), or actively enable children to hurt themselves, is a modern horror story. Adults are supposed to protect children until they can fend for themselves - fully grown, mature and independent.

naughtytortiefortytwo · 10/02/2023 18:51

SlicerAndEcho · 10/02/2023 18:22

Some of these young people are going to get such a rude awakening when they interact with the rest of the world.

I know we’ve talked before about the link with anime, manga (especially yaoi) and fanfic, but I’m really worried about how much they’re feeding each other and reinforcing each other through these areas.

I read fanfic and before you open it there are lists of the themes in any given fic. The trans fics are appearing more and more, and StellaAndCrow’s posts reminded me that in the last couple of weeks I’ve seen several saying they involve enlarged clitoris sex (although I don’t think that’s the term they used, I don’t remember it). I think much like yaoi presented « gay » male relationships in a very unrealistic way and led some girls to believe that’s what they’re looking for, reading these fics is going to make some of them believe that people are going to want to pretend an enlarged clitoris is a penis (or even more unbelievably, not see the difference).

I also read fic for a specific fandom dating back a couple of decades. In the last year or so a few very unappealing and normally extremely badly spelled fics have started appearing, turning the characters into trans people — which is especially daft and risible, as none of the characters of this fandom would canonically have been even remotely likely to be taken in by trans ideology, I mean you might as well not even bother 🤣 (it’s not Star Trek, but imagine the equivalent of writing a fanfic about trans Picard who “comes out” to Commander Riker in great tearfulness and drama that he is, in fact, actually a teenage transman. Or wants to be a trans woman. That kind of stuff 😂) These fics are clearly written by young and very impressionistic teenagers and are generally extremely silly.

In other fics, though, I see a huge change. In what used to be a overwhelmingly female-authored fandom that produced both non-erotica fics and erotica in equal amounts, but which was generally very female-focused and well written, now there is much less genuine erotica and a LOT of “kink” stuff (smut fics involving porn categories like choking, “breath play”, “praise kink”, all the sub/Dom kink bdsm stuff, “daddy kink”, “creampie” and so on). And those fics are largely written by young women in their early twenties. It’s really quite disturbing to see, because it really is quite the change, and it makes me think that young women’s sexuality has already been shaped so much by porn that this is what they genuinely find sexy and also quite normal.

It makes me sad, not just because it was a fandom with really well written erotica that was based on female pleasure and desire, which used to be written by a huge range of women including older women; and now there’s a lot less of that, and what there is, is porny, male-porn-fantasy dominated, and often implausible. (You can tell from some of the fics that some of these young women are writing about stuff they have seen in porn, but some anatomical impossibilities make it clear that they have no actual practical experience with sex.)

This fits in with the trans/anime/porn connection (and some of those categories are now routine on major porn sites. Of course they are shaping people’s sexualities!) It’s like a real time demonstration of how this generation’s sexuality is being rewritten and reshaped by internet porn, right in front of our eyes. A generation ago, choking, slapping, “daddy kink” and so on were niche interests. Now they’re so routinely part of young people’s erotic imagination that they’re imagining them back into quite mainstream characters from decades ago, and seeing no problem at all, because they genuinely can’t imagine there was a time — really quite recently! — when people had mutually satisfying sex without “power play”, the woman being choked round the throat, or the female character orgasming to calling her partner “Daddy” while he slaps her.

CliantheLang · 10/02/2023 19:07

Delphinium20 · 09/02/2023 20:23

I admire Hillary so very much, but I think she's keeping quiet because of the pure vile that the Bernie Bro types spew at her. That wing of the party already did their damage on her enough that she, in her pragmatism, saw keeping the party together was more important. She's far too smart and well versed in misogyny to buy TWAW...no way she believes this.

I'm going to assume you haven't visited Libya, lately.

PIKNIK20 · 10/02/2023 19:33

So this enquiry was done over two months ago. Why do we only know about it now? Have I missed something? Hopefully the BBC will enlighten me very soon...

Crouton19 · 10/02/2023 22:05

@ShireWifeofNigelFarage

Crouton19 · 10/02/2023 22:06

Sorry, meant to say thank you @ShireWifeofNigelFarage
!
that whole blog post is crackers

ResisterRex · 11/02/2023 18:53

Hannah Barnes' new book is discussed in this article:

Tavistock scandal ‘on a par with East German doping of athletes’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e04f4958-aa26-11ed-8a03-b2faadede0c5?shareToken=00ff0b19604b5654163a577fc4a2ec48

Just the Susie Green mentions:

"• In 2016, Susie Green, former head of the pro-trans charity Mermaids, emailed Dr Polly Carmichael, who was then the head of Gids, asking to cut the time children had to spend on puberty blockers before irreversible cross-sex hormones could be introduced.

• Staff raised concerns when, on behalf of families, Green requested children’s clinicians to be changed to someone believed to be more likely to prescribe hormones.

On other occasions a change in clinician would be requested by Green, the Mermaids chief, Spiliadis said."

“"I remember thinking and talking to Paul [Jenkins, the Tavistock chief] and saying that this is really inappropriate — how come a person who’s the director, or the CEO of a charity, is entitled to request a change of clinicians on behalf of a family?”"

And a Mermaids specific one:

"Mermaids declined to comment."

TheBiologyStupid · 12/02/2023 00:47

Yes, that's a great article. The Times also published a piece by Hadley Freeman about Barnes' book: archive.ph/r18FJ

WarriorNun · 12/02/2023 05:49

naughtytortiefortytwo there are a number of detransitioners who have mentioned that type of fan fic/ porn being the driving force if their transition.

When the fucking hell will all this be considered as part of the social contagion?

I feel Barnes' book should be sent to every mp in the land as Joyce's was.

Still reeling at how SG managed to have so much influence

WarriorNun · 12/02/2023 06:04

Hadn't read Hadley's piece; it's also excellent and also as shocking.

In around the year 2000, the trust asked Di Ceglie to draw up a report of who its patients were. The results were astonishing. Most of Gids’s patients were boys with an average age of 11. More than 25 per cent of them had spent time in care, 38 per cent came from families with mental health problems and 42 per cent had lost at least one parent, either through separation or death. Most had histories of other problems such as anxiety and physical abuse; almost a quarter had a history of self-harm. No conclusions were drawn and Gids continued to treat gender dysphoria as a cause, rather than a symptom, of adolescent distress.

The writing has been on the wall for over 2 decades.

SinnerBoy · 12/02/2023 12:07

ResisterRex · Yesterday 18:53

"Mermaids declined to comment."

Weremaids have evidently learned that anything they say will condemn them, so have decided that silence is better.

moggerhanger · 13/02/2023 12:46

So who would like to idly speculate on the outcome of the Charity Commission statutory enquiry? (Because it's unlikely that they'll say "move along, nothing to see here". Statutory enquiries are, as we know, usually launched where there's evidence of something being wrong, off the back of a preceding compliance case.) Especially with the revelations about Green's/Mermaids' influence over clinical care at the Tavistock, despite their disclaimers in court that they're not medically qualified.

I reckon:

  • Susie Green disqualified from being a charity trustee
  • significant criticism of Mermaids' governance and safeguarding compliance, with a finding that the trustees failed to protect the charity's reputation
  • requirements for specific improvements to be made in relation to governance and safeguarding
  • a finding that bringing legal action regarding the LGB Alliance was outside the charity's objects

Any other bets?

nilsmousehammer · 13/02/2023 13:19

I'll take a side bet on how the results of that inquiry matches to the Mermaids Mark Your Own Homework internal review results.

I'm guessing a little more on safeguarding, a little less on more detailed emotional support of and doing of what junior employees say.

FannyCann · 13/02/2023 13:27

a finding that bringing legal action regarding the LGB Alliance was outside the charity's objects

When can we expect to hear the judgement in the case? It seems to have been a very long time since the court hearing.

ResisterRex · 13/02/2023 13:41

moggerhanger · 13/02/2023 12:46

So who would like to idly speculate on the outcome of the Charity Commission statutory enquiry? (Because it's unlikely that they'll say "move along, nothing to see here". Statutory enquiries are, as we know, usually launched where there's evidence of something being wrong, off the back of a preceding compliance case.) Especially with the revelations about Green's/Mermaids' influence over clinical care at the Tavistock, despite their disclaimers in court that they're not medically qualified.

I reckon:

  • Susie Green disqualified from being a charity trustee
  • significant criticism of Mermaids' governance and safeguarding compliance, with a finding that the trustees failed to protect the charity's reputation
  • requirements for specific improvements to be made in relation to governance and safeguarding
  • a finding that bringing legal action regarding the LGB Alliance was outside the charity's objects

Any other bets?

Probably this is in the right ballpark. But don't get thinking they will have referred anything to the police because I seriously doubt that. They're not set up for it and they're too keen on sitting on the fence.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/02/2023 13:46

I'd hope that the relevant statutory safeguarding body (either the local authority safeguarding or the NSPCC) have taken a deep dive into the charity.
As they evidently failed to use safer recruiting guidelines and and ended up with a paedophile supporter and an adult who worked directly with children posting nude indecent images of himself online, a deep dive in to the backgrounds and online history of all their staff is needed. These men were working there in plain sight and action was only taken after their activites were exposed.

moggerhanger · 13/02/2023 13:55

@ResisterRex agreed, I'm not suspecting criminality.

moggerhanger · 13/02/2023 13:57

@FannyCann I can't find any mention of a date for the ruling. Could take several months I suppose.

SidewaysOtter · 13/02/2023 14:11

IIRC, they said it could take up to a year.

BaronMunchausen · 13/02/2023 17:14

@naughtytortiefortytwo A bit of a tangent, but outside of fanfiction Star Trek: Discovery already has a non-binary character. Curiously, her 'they' pronoun is to some extent explained by the character hosting a symbiont - but primarily driven by the actors (both female - one 'non-binary', the other 'transman').

Not quite as arch as the 'transing' of Ellen>Elliot Page's character in The Umbrella Academy - who gets her hair cut to become a 'he' and is thereafter repeatedly affirmed by 'his' siblings. Seemed odd that an actor couldn't continue to play the same established character - rather the character had to play the actor in a development that was entirely irrelevant to the plot.

MrsJamin · 21/02/2023 11:17

Susie Green's Ted Talk has been removed from the Ted youtube channel! The reverse ferreting has begun in earnest. There are copies already up on youtube so that people never forget the horrendous homophobic gay conversion therapy she put her child through.