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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s Equality Party votes for Self-ID

251 replies

AnonGCMum · 26/11/2022 20:37

I gather from reading Twitter that the WEP has today voted to support self ID. I’ve looked, but I can’t find the text of the motion that was voted for. Has anyone seen it? I’ve seen Sophie Walker’s open letter asking members to vote against mobile.twitter.com/SophieRunning/status/1596036529209724929

More generally, is the WEP worth getting involved with? I like the idea of a feminist party but if they’re going down the self-ID/TWAW route then it’s not for me.

OP posts:
MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:18

Hepwo · 30/11/2022 09:11

Some interesting reading from a survivor. You can of course accuse her of prejudice if that is what gives you "cheer".

Experts say that grooming gangs are not the same as paedophile rings. It’s something that central Government really needs to understand in order to prevent more grooming gang crime in the future.

In November 2017, the Swedish government held a meeting where they stated that: “Sexual violence is being used as a tactic of terrorism”, and as such, it was recognised as a threat to Sweden’s national security.

The link between terrorism and rape undertaken by Islamist gangs was not being ignored. They called for counter-extremism education. This sounds like a balanced and intelligent governmental response to me.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/rotherham-grooming-gang-sexual-abuse-muslim-islamist-racism-white-girls-religious-extremism-terrorism-a8261831.html

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/what-do-we-know-about-the-ethnicity-of-sexual-abuse-gangs

Sounds racist to me.

Hepwo · 30/11/2022 09:22

You are good for a laugh Ministry of Cheer!

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 30/11/2022 09:24

Hepwo · 30/11/2022 09:22

You are good for a laugh Ministry of Cheer!

They’ve changed their ‘gang’ gotcha on this thread

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:26

"Links with terrorism "

those seem entirely fact-based and not at all commencted with the racism and prejudice which seeps through sections of this website - egged on by posters who are seem very keen to push a racist agenda stigmatising religioons and ethnicities.

That Channel 4 article seems to lack any rigour- who characterised the "type 1 offenders "and "type 2 offenders ? were there any independent checks involved.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 30/11/2022 09:27

Tens of thousands of girls have been victims of grooming gangs - that we know of. I really don't think anyone should be pointing at clouds and shouting 'racist' because the issue is finally being addressed on a very small scale. It just shows how much ideology matters more than people.

Hepwo · 30/11/2022 09:32

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:26

"Links with terrorism "

those seem entirely fact-based and not at all commencted with the racism and prejudice which seeps through sections of this website - egged on by posters who are seem very keen to push a racist agenda stigmatising religioons and ethnicities.

That Channel 4 article seems to lack any rigour- who characterised the "type 1 offenders "and "type 2 offenders ? were there any independent checks involved.

You couldn't resist it could you? You have called the author of the article, the victim of horrendous sexual violence, "racist" and "prejudice".

You are beneath contempt.

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 09:38

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:01

Why aren't powerful middle-aged whit paedophiles called "grooming gangs"?

I think we know the answer.

They are. If they are part of a ‘gang’. Often they are named as part of ‘paedophile rings’. Or they could be named as part of organised crime consortiums trafficking women and girls.

You really seem to not have a wide ranging grasp on these issues.

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:39

I didn't call her racist. I talked about some of the people who post on this website.

she has experienced terrible things and deserves sympathy and respect.

that doesn't mean that she is well-informed about terrorism

ArabellaScott · 30/11/2022 09:41

Ah, Ministry, back with some more evidence-free 'facts', are we? And various slurs and accusations against the women here as standard. Morning! Cup of coffee?

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 09:46

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:18

Sounds racist to me.

I’ll bite.

why? Pull the specific quotes out that are racist in your view.

Or is this another generalisation that you like to make so you can snidely make negative generalisations about this board, but can’t actually substantiate.

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 09:47

ArabellaScott · 30/11/2022 09:41

Ah, Ministry, back with some more evidence-free 'facts', are we? And various slurs and accusations against the women here as standard. Morning! Cup of coffee?

“Evidence free” facts are the key here arabella.

ArabellaScott · 30/11/2022 09:53

Yes, that's been made very clear, Helleofabore. It's why I will no longer engage with posters who are not in good faith, and are just a long tedious sealion with no actual facts or evidence to share.

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 09:59

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:39

I didn't call her racist. I talked about some of the people who post on this website.

she has experienced terrible things and deserves sympathy and respect.

that doesn't mean that she is well-informed about terrorism

Please report any racist posts. Because MNHQ will delete them and if the poster persists, they will be banned.

Racist posts are not acceptable on MNHQ.

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 10:05

Sorry… did we miss the explanation of how Julie Bindel is now far right wing?

Ministry?? Did you answer this?

Is Julie Bindel ‘far right’? Please explain why?

Or are your visits just the usual visit to make some more snide generalisations, plop down some more dramatic accusations and disappear until next visit.

The pattern is very familiar.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/11/2022 10:14

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 00:07

More not far right posters

"the issue being discussed is how groups of young men from, e.g. Pakistan or Albania, are presenting a specific threat to women in the UK. So, the grooming gangs would be a very good example. Or we could talk about forced marriage or FGM."

To the tune of Imagine by John Lennon

Imagine everyone’s far right
I do it consistently
No real explanation
For my idee fixe

Imagine all the Nazis
Living’ in my head
Ah ah ah

Imagine all the Nazis
It isn’t hard to do
It’s my favourite hobby
And my religion too

Imagining everyone’s far right
Even though it’s not really a thing in the UK
Ah ah ah

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 10:16

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/11/2022 10:14

To the tune of Imagine by John Lennon

Imagine everyone’s far right
I do it consistently
No real explanation
For my idee fixe

Imagine all the Nazis
Living’ in my head
Ah ah ah

Imagine all the Nazis
It isn’t hard to do
It’s my favourite hobby
And my religion too

Imagining everyone’s far right
Even though it’s not really a thing in the UK
Ah ah ah

Ahhh!!! Bernard you are a star!

You have outdone yourself this thread. Thank you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/11/2022 10:19

Bernard Grin

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2022 10:25

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:01

Why aren't powerful middle-aged whit paedophiles called "grooming gangs"?

I think we know the answer.

I'm going to explain this very slowly for you to understand again.

Who names these groups?
Is it women's rights activists or is this the media and political leaders?
Are the two groups the same?
What happens if there is a social problem that is not being noticed by the media and political leaders?
Women's rights groups are noticing something cultural that is negatively affecting women. This needs to be discussed without emotion. This is hard to do without being accused of racism, but if it is having an adverse affect on a protected group under the Equality Act it is worthy of discussion. The point of the Equality Act is to balance interests and prevent harms to a group.
If one group is asserting power over another group to their detriment this is where the media and political groups should step in to address the issue in a responsible manner. This isn't what we see happening so you get ideological opportunism to capitalise on the issue.
The women's rights groups are centred and focused on the impact on women. If there is excessive cultural prejudices to women which are being imported with high levels of immigration from a particular community it is relevant for women's groups to discuss these harms. This does NOT make them racist (though it can be hard to get the tone absoluetely spot on at all times).

The problem overall with rights and equality in the UK at the moment is that it has forgotten this concept of balancing needs to prevent harms and the idea that it can be quite complex. A white affluent woman can be more priviledged than a male immigrant, however a male immigrant can be more priviledged than a female immigrant. Also, large numbers of male immigrants can hold power over a single white affluent woman in certain situations. So it is important to discuss these ideas on a case by case with it in mind that it can be completely dependent on the situation.

What identity politics does is impose a rigid hierachical framework which does not allow for this nuance. This creates a problem as it is not sophicasted enough in thinking to prevent harms in certain situations. The media and political groups in supporting this concept rather than the Equality Act's principles in law, creates a situation where the this lack of understanding of rights and how the law should work and it allows abusers to evade the law and allows Far Right can capitalise on it.

One of the most disappointing things in all of this for women's rights activitists of many years standing, is that that can see this and the current leader of the opposite was a Human Rights lawyer whom for this should be his bread and butter, yet he's fucked it in the head.

So please go away and think about what womens rights groups are doing. They are trying to protect themselves with the law and to balance their rights in the correct and appropriate way - like they always have. They are trying to asset the rights and protections they should have rather than degenerate another group.

HTH

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2022 10:27

Its interesting how there is a deliberate thing to try and place womens rights groups in the 'bad actor' and 'oppressor' all the time isn't it?

When reality is they are just doing what theyve done for a long long time without power.

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 10:29

Thank you RedToothBrush

I realise we are mostly posting for the readers and the lurker’s benefit.

I doubt ministry will even read the well thought out posts appearing on this thread.

Numsmetbunfight · 30/11/2022 10:32

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2022 10:27

Its interesting how there is a deliberate thing to try and place womens rights groups in the 'bad actor' and 'oppressor' all the time isn't it?

When reality is they are just doing what theyve done for a long long time without power.

I wonder if it's the case that they aren't getting any traction from claiming everything is transphobic (because everyone is bored to tears with that bollocks), so now they're hitching their wagons to claims of racism - basically because it has more currency - and using this to try and shut down those pesky women.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 30/11/2022 10:39

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 10:16

Ahhh!!! Bernard you are a star!

You have outdone yourself this thread. Thank you.

😀

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2022 11:23

If accepting increased cultural diversity without question means also accepting increased harms and unlawful behaviour towards women we have a problem.

The point is we need to question and highlight where the conflicts are and ensure that harms are not carried out in the name of cultural norms. Instead we make the point about the need to assert the rights of women and how this empowers us all as law abiding residents who respect everyone in our country as the norm.

We must be able to talk about sensitive and difficult subjects to achieve this even if some people don't like this or think it hurts their feelings. Prevention of harm and unlawful behaviour is more important than hurty feelings.

Women centring women to highlight harms to women is not being anti anything else. The repeated desire to conflate women's right with anti-whatever it is, is merely another way to prevent women from asserting the rights they already have in law.

The law must work for women not only on paper but also in practice.

Helleofabore · 30/11/2022 11:25

Numsmetbunfight · 30/11/2022 10:32

I wonder if it's the case that they aren't getting any traction from claiming everything is transphobic (because everyone is bored to tears with that bollocks), so now they're hitching their wagons to claims of racism - basically because it has more currency - and using this to try and shut down those pesky women.

Yes, when transphobia accusations jumped the shark (I am speaking about 'that' manifesto if you know what I mean), the accusations then pivoted to racism and fascism/far right wing.

It did briefly settle on 'covid deniers' too for a while. There is a poster who persists with that one, strangely....

The danger is that they will then exhaust people's patience with those endless accusations so that, just like with transphobia, the instances of very real racism and fascism will be less likely to be heeded. Because of this overexposure on falsified accusations.

Then they will pivot from that to another set of accusations.

Tracking the pivots is interesting. Because feminist analysis has not pivoted.

Watching videos of women discussing the issues from 4+ years ago, the message has remained solidly consistent. Reliably so because it is based on evidence and not pleas using emotional manipulation.

That emotional manipulation is exactly what ministryofcheers is attempting. They are not getting anyway though. As I said, many people on this forum are quite used to seeing childish tactics.

lifeturnsonadime · 30/11/2022 11:29

MinistryofCheer · 30/11/2022 09:01

Why aren't powerful middle-aged whit paedophiles called "grooming gangs"?

I think we know the answer.

What's a 'whit paedophile'?
if you mean people like Jimmy Saville what 'gang' was he in?

Jimmy Saville was abhorrent and was enabled by people who refused or were too scared to act out but I'm not aware that he was abusing along with or collectively with other white paedophiles which is why he is not referred to as a 'grooming gang'.

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