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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s Equality Party votes for Self-ID

251 replies

AnonGCMum · 26/11/2022 20:37

I gather from reading Twitter that the WEP has today voted to support self ID. I’ve looked, but I can’t find the text of the motion that was voted for. Has anyone seen it? I’ve seen Sophie Walker’s open letter asking members to vote against mobile.twitter.com/SophieRunning/status/1596036529209724929

More generally, is the WEP worth getting involved with? I like the idea of a feminist party but if they’re going down the self-ID/TWAW route then it’s not for me.

OP posts:
nilsmousehammer · 28/11/2022 17:54

MinistryofCheer · 28/11/2022 14:49

There are many people on the threads I quoted advocating for alliances with the extreme right.

There are even more people on this thread denying that it is happening.

There is no extreme right in the UK.

It does not exist.

I'm really sorry about that, but it doesn't.

That KJK once retweeted someone's mother's sister's aunt's hamster who had once bitten someone in the American extreme right? It's not relevant. This is desperately silly, it really is. It's a desperate attempt to try and blame by association.

I mean in what actual way is this supposed alliance manifesting? Where are the threads organising what with what values reflecting concern? What political views are being discussed, reflecting extremist right wing policies or seeking action to achieve them? What are these extremist policies?

ArabellaScott · 28/11/2022 18:00

Sing it, Bernard!

Helleofabore · 28/11/2022 19:26

MinistryofCheer · 28/11/2022 14:52

I think it's largely nonsense.

And what about the signs yesterday in Hyde Park that called for trans people to be ‘armed’….

Aren’t we constantly bombarded with how carrying arms is far right wing????

Happylittlechicken · 28/11/2022 19:31

@BernardBlacksMolluscs i love you 💜💜💜

Kucinghitam · 28/11/2022 19:37

@BernardBlacksMolluscs hilarious! Grin

TerfranosaurusVagina · 28/11/2022 20:31

But I appreciate that many of you are in the process of creating your own reality

Shock

@MinistryofCheer this phrase immediately jumped out at me for its sheer hypocrisy and ludicrousness.
I think you'll find the only people in this debate creating their own reality are those who decide they have changed sex and demand that the world validates this.

ArabellaScott · 28/11/2022 21:15

Some might say we are all in a constant process of 'creating our own reality', but that's probably giving Ministry's argument more weight than it deserves.

nilsmousehammer · 28/11/2022 21:15

TerfranosaurusVagina · 28/11/2022 20:31

But I appreciate that many of you are in the process of creating your own reality

Shock

@MinistryofCheer this phrase immediately jumped out at me for its sheer hypocrisy and ludicrousness.
I think you'll find the only people in this debate creating their own reality are those who decide they have changed sex and demand that the world validates this.

It's just the usual appropriate whatever is discussed here and parrot it back thing.

You honestly can throw a word or idea around here for a week or two and wait for it to appear. Context and evidence never present.

nilsmousehammer · 28/11/2022 21:24

I mean to anyone with a grip on reality it's stark: Nicola Sturgeon is busy demonstrating this to the horror of a lot of the rest of the world.

Women with concerns: Look at these actual events that have happened to women because of this policy

Sturgeon and activists: This will never and has never happened.

Women, baffled: er, LOOK at the reports, the police charges, the names of the people involved, the camera evidence-

Sturgeon and activists: this will never and has never happened, there is no danger to women, you are only saying this out of random bigotry

Women, increasingly bewildered: Look there's five women here who will tell you their first hand experience of -

Sturgeon and activists: no time, no time! There is no evidence, that never happened, that meeting never happened, (well known person from rape crisis joins in) no female has ever voiced any concern and nothing has ever happened

This is an ideology literally BASED ON emotion and desire creates reality, not facts and evidence, and it is socially wholly unacceptable not to enable this if it comes from someone socially designated as superior to you. (You will not be permitted to have an identity or anything at all if you are not part of this superior group.) It is ROOTED IN reality and biology denialism. That's what it is.

The protest for women's rights and safeguarding is that facts, reality and evidence cannot be disappeared because its inconvenient and some people really don't like others to have boundaries.

So like the rather out there accusations of extremist far right (which is not in this country and of which there is no evidence or policy or even actual mention of what and how this is supposedly manifesting beyond KJK being apparently the devil and anyone not declaiming her and leaving MN is contaminated) this is yet more sound and fury signifying.... well. No one's quite sure yet.

Come on. Debate welcomed. It's going to require actual points and evidence, not random mud slinging.

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2022 21:59

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2022 13:41

'Membership and local organisations

Reportedly, 1,300 people joined the party on the day that it opened up membership, which costs £4 per month.[18] In the first financial year, the party raised £512,219 in membership fees.[91] As of 13 October 2015, 65 local and regional Women's Equality Party groups had been founded,[29] and in July 2016 the party reported that it had 65,000 members.[92][93] The WEP was described as "the fastest growing political force in the UK" in a Daily Telegraph article on the party's campaigning for the May 2016 London mayoral election.[94] The party's membership reportedly grew from 25,000 to 55,000 in the month following the European Union membership referendum.[95] In September 2020, it was reported that the party's membership was 30,000.[2]'

This is from Wiki. Lots of varying reports of membership numbers, there.

Guardian article says 30k (Sept 2020)

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/17/womens-equality-party-runs-consultation-on-self-identification-for-trans-people

WEP website says 65k

www.womensequality.org.uk/faqs

I'm curious how many members there are, and if that number has risen or fallen in recent years.

Wow thats impressive

Here is a page from the latest House of Commons Research paper into membership of political parties. It was published in late Aug 2022.

It only lists parties with elected representatives in Parliament.

It has the LDs on a membership of 74k and the Green's on about 54k whilst little Plaid has just 10k.

So the mighty WEP is only slightly smaller than the LDs, yet manages to stand only a fraction of the candidates. Now given how the LDs and Greens raise money (mainly through their membership rather than big donors), you might have to ask why they are doing better, why aren't the standing more candidates and why do they have less ability to take the donkey work of political campaigning like canvassing more seriously?

From this we have to conclude they are good at talking out their arse, making up shit or just fucking crap and lazy.

Take your pick as one of these two options must be true given what they've posted on their website about membership numbers.

So no. Don't join them. They are clearly even more shit than the established bigger parties.

Women’s Equality Party votes for Self-ID
RedToothBrush · 28/11/2022 22:20

Helleofabore · 28/11/2022 14:12

ministry's contributions are also an excellent example of Brandolini's law.

Takes notes

Add to list of phrases that must be repeated frequently to convey the laws of Internet and stupidity.

See
Hanlons Razor
Godwin Law
Occums Razor
Poes Law
Darwin Awards
Schrodinger Cat
Whattaboutery
Bewilderness Rules

I'm liking this one.

Someone should right a write a book about the wisdom of the internet and the overriding rules that are inescapable.

I remember from many many years ago, (early 2000s!) how this guide to the keyboard warriors of the internet, which I still think holds up well - it describes certain behaviours and types of engagement (though I tend to think people shift between the various types)
www.flamewarriorsguide.com

Anyway this is a complete derail to this thread, but I love that new phrase so much I wanted to comment on it and tbh thats more useful and inciteful than anything the WEP Grifters have to say.

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2022 22:31

Lies, damn lies and statistics is another good phrase to trot out at some one who starts talking about the virtues of opinion polling without examination of methodology and manipulation.

See those bollocks things about Self ID which rely on public ignorance and fall apart when you ask more nuanced questions about fairness in sport, sharing changing rooms with minors and rapists being in women's jails. At this point, when informed about what self ID actually means in practice, instead of feeling like they must be nice, people go wtaf are you having a laugh of course that's bollocks.

Well unless you are a member of a political party at which point your brains fall out and you nod like Pavlovs Dog, staying yes Winston that definitely is 3 fingers, honest.

Helleofabore · 28/11/2022 22:40

It is a good one Red.

and while I does take more effort for us to refute the posts, it does mean that often the links provided to refute are very informative.

I learned so much on this board from people posting links to refute falsehoods and from finding links myself to either provide evidence or to disprove posts. I don’t mind doing it. However, not when you merely get the repetition of a poster plopping down the same links like that changes their misrepresentations to be true, when it is still what it was the first time round. A misrepresentation, a tired old trope or even just some cognitive distortion tactic.

I look forward to the specific post examples being linked up. Because otherwise, there is no credibility to those posts. Just like that ridiculous ‘let’s ignore the other questions’ post upthread. That either shows someone who doesn’t understand qualitative research and how to interpret answers in the full set of data, or, someone who grabs poorly formed answers from twitter or somewhere else.

I am sure the accusation sounded strong in their head…

Helleofabore · 28/11/2022 22:42

Ah. Crossed posts

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2022 23:01

Helleofabore · 28/11/2022 22:42

Ah. Crossed posts

Haha yes.

Must add methodology to my list above.

Along with 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' and 'thought terminating cliches'.

I might have to refine this all into and title it
'How to win the internet'

(amazingly, there does not seem to be a book on Amazon popping up with this title!).

MinistryofCheer · 28/11/2022 23:31

There are many posts on the threads I linked to (and on several others on this section of Mumsnet) who advocating links with the extreme right,

You know that.

I know that.

You prefer to deny it.

I'm not entirely surprised.

Hepwo · 28/11/2022 23:37

What is the extreme right I'm advocating a link to?

Also what about Sam Brinton doing a podcast with the Heritage Foundation. They're advocating a link with the extreme right, aren't they?

Scyla · 28/11/2022 23:39

"Advocating links" is terrible grammar by the way

CloudsAndLightDrizzle · 29/11/2022 00:02

😂
You can fuck right off any with spurious "links to the far right", mate!

Men cannot be women. That is a fact. Not left wing or right wing. Hard biological fact. Human biology.

Trouble is, men from both wings - left and right but also, sadly, middle too - are bent on shutting women down on women's rights.

Mate, you're the problem, not the answer

CloudsAndLightDrizzle · 29/11/2022 00:04

Wankers who fail to recognise women as autonomous humans. Tsch.

Heavylifting · 29/11/2022 00:06

My first reaction to the topic was “Turkeys voting for Christmas”.

RedToothBrush · 29/11/2022 00:15

MinistryofCheer · 28/11/2022 23:31

There are many posts on the threads I linked to (and on several others on this section of Mumsnet) who advocating links with the extreme right,

You know that.

I know that.

You prefer to deny it.

I'm not entirely surprised.

Let me talk to you about this:

There is a phenomen in politics where issues that should be dealt with by mainstream politicians are neglected, leaving a vacuum in accountability.

That then tends to get filled with opportunistic extremists who take advantage of the fact that an issue is connecting with voter concerns - because there is a problem and then they manage to get airtime and space because of the failure of accountability of the main parties.

The best known example in recent years, has been the child abuse scandals in Rotherham and elsewhere.

It was noted that:
The failure to address the abuse was attributed to a combination of factors revolving around race, class, religion and gender—contemptuous and sexist attitudes toward the mostly working-class victims; lack of a child-centred focus; a desire to protect the town's reputation; and lack of training and resources.

What is notable about the concern about Self ID is the group of women, who come - often from a working class background or are non-white - who have been very firmly on the left in their politics their entire life. They've campaigned vigoursly for years about inequality and injustice on numerous subjects.

The issue here is NOT that they have aligned with the far right. The issue is that the mainstream political parties have neglected the subject and ignored public concerns in pursuit of their own agenda which is detatched from grass roots and accountability. It is NOT the women's groups who have changed their position and moved politically in anyway. It is the mainstream political parties that have decided that public concerns are not worth listening to and this created a political vacuum into which nefarious others have stepped knowing this will gain them support from disaffected voters. This goes much broader and deeper than purely about trans/women issues. Its about a breakdown in trust in the politicial classes on a number of issues and in the face of growing economic hardship.

Most of these women aren't actually interested in these charlatans coming in - they can see it for exactly what it is. A few will be attracted to it yes, but for the most part these women tend to stay in their own grouping and persue their own agenda.

The narrative on this needs to be firmly reframed into what it is: a dereliction of duty by those in power which has lead to a political vacuum which is being exploited by the far right. Women who were affected by this issue have remained constant and consistent in their views and have not changed their position. They've stood still politically whilst the political classes abandoned them.

The women who continue to fight for what they always have, have not become far right wing nuts. If you actually listen to the way they speak, and what they say - they use data analysis, they go out of their way to provide detailed information and provide evidence where they can to demonstrate the problem.

This is NOT how the far right operate. They appeal solely to emotion and use rhetoric. The difference is quited marked. Women have to PROVE something where as the far right use propaganda techniques repeatedly to appeal to the disgruntled.

I could invoke Godwin here to use another example. But I won't. Suffice to say its a repeating pattern, thats well known and being blamed on women, by the leftist political classes in an attempt to discredit them. The fact its coming particularly from the left, isn't a coincidence. Its coming from the left because its the left wing women trying to hold their own to account, and this shows up the inadequency of policy and this dereliction of duty that no one wants to take responsibility for.

Women are left with no option but to push on to expose the dereliction of duty, and that continues to empower the far right - not the other way around.

There is a very easy way for the left to deal with the far right here. It is for them to acknowledge the problem, to take control of the situation and to join calls for a massive inquiry into how we got into this fucking mess and are allowing the removal of safeguarding protocols which are putting women and girls - particularly lesbians and other minorities into a position which is endangering them and removing their ability to engage with society in a way which they had fought hard to gain in the first place.

We are in danger of reinstating the 'urinary leash' and forgetting the evidence that we have from other parts of the world where women don't have free and easy access to single sex toilets in the name of 'equality' and this faux argument about wanting to ban trans people from society. We KNOW that women are ALREADY self excluding as a result of this neglect of public interest and the imposition of hierachical dictate from above.

But obviously the trope about women aligning with the far right is much easier to swallow for the hard of thinking and deniers of accountability. Its simplistic tripe that fits easier in a thought terminating tweet.

Meanwhile, people (often women) who have historical knowledge and good understanding of data basis in science are uniting to document all this and will take every last fucker to court to demonstrate how they've dropped the bollock on this one. And they'll ultimately eventually win, because they are smart and funny and determined and about as far removed from the far fucking right as you'll ever likely to meet and because when reality makes contact with self ID you are going to get almightly scandals arise that will be impossible to ignore and trying to discredit them with this bollocks 'guilt by association' just won't wash anymore.

The political elite of the left are enabling the far right through their dereliction of duty. They abandoned the working class women. They abandoned the vulnerable and abused women. They abandoned minority women. They abandoned children. They abandoned women's sport. All because they signed up to the nonsense that a man dressed as a woman is ALWAYS below them in a victim hierachary of oppression, when the reality is very very different. And it will come back to haunt them.

I'm sorry, but anyone who comes up with this trope, is an ignorant wally who knows very little about very much at all.

CloudsAndLightDrizzle · 29/11/2022 00:15

I was really disappointed with the trajectory of the "Women's Equality Party". Initially, I wanted to support this, I really did.

I did think, though, could they make it "Women's Equity" perhaps?

But no, they did not.

And then they went all "transwomen are women".

I mean, you had one job. Supposedly, women's rights. And then you let men hijack it. Slow handclap on that.

Is there still scope for - maybe a Women's Equity Party, perhaps?

CloudsAndLightDrizzle · 29/11/2022 00:23

RedToothBrush · 29/11/2022 00:15

Let me talk to you about this:

There is a phenomen in politics where issues that should be dealt with by mainstream politicians are neglected, leaving a vacuum in accountability.

That then tends to get filled with opportunistic extremists who take advantage of the fact that an issue is connecting with voter concerns - because there is a problem and then they manage to get airtime and space because of the failure of accountability of the main parties.

The best known example in recent years, has been the child abuse scandals in Rotherham and elsewhere.

It was noted that:
The failure to address the abuse was attributed to a combination of factors revolving around race, class, religion and gender—contemptuous and sexist attitudes toward the mostly working-class victims; lack of a child-centred focus; a desire to protect the town's reputation; and lack of training and resources.

What is notable about the concern about Self ID is the group of women, who come - often from a working class background or are non-white - who have been very firmly on the left in their politics their entire life. They've campaigned vigoursly for years about inequality and injustice on numerous subjects.

The issue here is NOT that they have aligned with the far right. The issue is that the mainstream political parties have neglected the subject and ignored public concerns in pursuit of their own agenda which is detatched from grass roots and accountability. It is NOT the women's groups who have changed their position and moved politically in anyway. It is the mainstream political parties that have decided that public concerns are not worth listening to and this created a political vacuum into which nefarious others have stepped knowing this will gain them support from disaffected voters. This goes much broader and deeper than purely about trans/women issues. Its about a breakdown in trust in the politicial classes on a number of issues and in the face of growing economic hardship.

Most of these women aren't actually interested in these charlatans coming in - they can see it for exactly what it is. A few will be attracted to it yes, but for the most part these women tend to stay in their own grouping and persue their own agenda.

The narrative on this needs to be firmly reframed into what it is: a dereliction of duty by those in power which has lead to a political vacuum which is being exploited by the far right. Women who were affected by this issue have remained constant and consistent in their views and have not changed their position. They've stood still politically whilst the political classes abandoned them.

The women who continue to fight for what they always have, have not become far right wing nuts. If you actually listen to the way they speak, and what they say - they use data analysis, they go out of their way to provide detailed information and provide evidence where they can to demonstrate the problem.

This is NOT how the far right operate. They appeal solely to emotion and use rhetoric. The difference is quited marked. Women have to PROVE something where as the far right use propaganda techniques repeatedly to appeal to the disgruntled.

I could invoke Godwin here to use another example. But I won't. Suffice to say its a repeating pattern, thats well known and being blamed on women, by the leftist political classes in an attempt to discredit them. The fact its coming particularly from the left, isn't a coincidence. Its coming from the left because its the left wing women trying to hold their own to account, and this shows up the inadequency of policy and this dereliction of duty that no one wants to take responsibility for.

Women are left with no option but to push on to expose the dereliction of duty, and that continues to empower the far right - not the other way around.

There is a very easy way for the left to deal with the far right here. It is for them to acknowledge the problem, to take control of the situation and to join calls for a massive inquiry into how we got into this fucking mess and are allowing the removal of safeguarding protocols which are putting women and girls - particularly lesbians and other minorities into a position which is endangering them and removing their ability to engage with society in a way which they had fought hard to gain in the first place.

We are in danger of reinstating the 'urinary leash' and forgetting the evidence that we have from other parts of the world where women don't have free and easy access to single sex toilets in the name of 'equality' and this faux argument about wanting to ban trans people from society. We KNOW that women are ALREADY self excluding as a result of this neglect of public interest and the imposition of hierachical dictate from above.

But obviously the trope about women aligning with the far right is much easier to swallow for the hard of thinking and deniers of accountability. Its simplistic tripe that fits easier in a thought terminating tweet.

Meanwhile, people (often women) who have historical knowledge and good understanding of data basis in science are uniting to document all this and will take every last fucker to court to demonstrate how they've dropped the bollock on this one. And they'll ultimately eventually win, because they are smart and funny and determined and about as far removed from the far fucking right as you'll ever likely to meet and because when reality makes contact with self ID you are going to get almightly scandals arise that will be impossible to ignore and trying to discredit them with this bollocks 'guilt by association' just won't wash anymore.

The political elite of the left are enabling the far right through their dereliction of duty. They abandoned the working class women. They abandoned the vulnerable and abused women. They abandoned minority women. They abandoned children. They abandoned women's sport. All because they signed up to the nonsense that a man dressed as a woman is ALWAYS below them in a victim hierachary of oppression, when the reality is very very different. And it will come back to haunt them.

I'm sorry, but anyone who comes up with this trope, is an ignorant wally who knows very little about very much at all.

Yes,. Yes. Yes,

Stunning post. Thank you.

DameMaud · 29/11/2022 00:31

Seconded!!!